Blocklayers, The Prison And The Dti

[feelslikeitshould]

Sorry for the long post, but there's a bit of background for those unfamiliar with the workings of the various DTI Schemes!

 

I had an interesting (to me, anyway) conversation this afternoon with a couple of brickies, about changes to a scheme that the DTI intend to implement in the near future.

 

The DTI has a register of certified craftsmen, to be on this register your trade must be included on the list of 13 in the Scheme for the Certification of Tradesmen 1990. In the 80's and 90's a lot of craftsmen did not hold any formal qualifications in their trade, the scheme was brought about to ensure that people in that situation, "time served" apprentices and the like, were carrying out work to a reasonable standard. They could be tested and inspected by the DTI, then given a trade card and included on the register of certified craftsmen. Great.

 

Then over come O'Hare McGovern and their Polish blocklayers. I have nothing against the Poles at all, by working overseas to increase their standard of living and their earnings they are only doing what the Irish and English did in the 80's and 90's, it's just a shame that some companies feel the need to exploit this by paying them less "because they can". Obviously, the prison is a Government job, so O'Hare McGovern have to be on the DTIs Approved Contractors list, gaining inclusion on this list isn't difficult, especially for a large company who have been awarded a Government tender. Anyone employed in carrying out the works must either be a sub-contractor from the Approved Contractors list or a Government certified craftsman.

 

However, on the prison job, O'Hare McGovern brought over Polish blocklayers. Blocklaying is not a trade on the certified craftsmen list in the Scheme for the Certification of Tradesmen 1990 so they did not have to be registered on the list at all. For this reason the DTI, against the wishes and recommendations of the Employers Federation, have decided that blocklaying is to be included on the list and that they will offer training courses in order the certify them as craftsmen.

 

Great you may think, well no, not really. The reason the Poles were given Work Permits is because they are blocklayers and since no-one on the island is a 'certified blocklayer' the main Contractor was able to sack (so I'm told, by a brickie who I have no reason not to believe) the local sub-contract brickies and replace them with cheaper Poles who they employ direct. I can see *some* logic in the DTIs thinking, make local guys certified blocklayers and then contractors can't import so much cheap labour, include blocklaying in the Scheme and that ties it all up nicely. Local brickies don't want this to happen, the Government have already let in the cheap labour and now they're here, they'll be staying as they will be demand at half the price. Under the new training, blocklayers are taught to lay blocks, nothing else, no putting in wall ties, DPCs, cavity trays or closers. Just laying blocks. So what do the brickies do? Labour for the blocklayers? And it wouldn't take many Polish blocklayers to come over and cause serious trouble for local bricklayer/masons.

 

From the point of view of the Employers Federation, the Government should be helping the bricklayers who can do the job and are already here. They're creating this 'craft' to satisfy the main contractor in this case. Surely they should be refusing these 'blocklayers' work permits if their trade certificates are not recognised on the island or accepted as part of the Scheme? It would seem that the whole Work Permit system will become obsolete as job titles can be created in order to employ whoever you want.

[mojomonkey]

Have you been hanging out with CopyCat?

[feelslikeitshould]

Have you been hanging out with CopyCat?

 

Had a drink with him at lunchtime actually....

[Sidney]

haha, So, what your saying is..... all these houses/buildings are/have been built by uncertified people???? (except those built from bricks)

 

Read the post, this is not what it says at all. I was told a similar story by a brickie who worked at the prison. He was earning £15 per hour as a fully qualified and highly experienced bricklayer when he was laid off so that the contractors could bring in a gang of polish workers being paid £5.50 each per hour, they had all the tools they would require bought for them, cheap lodgings provided and told how lucky they were.

Many experienced tradesmen are now having to go to England to find work as there is no work for them here, amazing considering how many building projects are currently in progress around the island.

[Alias]

I think she's saying that because the poles are blockies instead of brickies they can get work permits more easily (none of the local tradesmen are cert'd for block-laying per se). Then that the government scheme to introduce local certs for block-laying is too late, as poles have supposedly flooded the market already.

 

I see the point you're making, but what do you propose be done? The DTI has reacted to the influx by offering local tradesmen more opportunities in that area, but they are not immigration and can't do anything to kick out the poles (who I assume are elligible for the DTI training schemes too).

 

edited for spelling. Also, still don't agree with the existence of the employers fed (certainly as quango)

[WilDDog]

The reason the Poles were given Work Permits is because they are blocklayers and since no-one on the island is a 'certified blocklayer' the main Contractor was able

 

If the Polish blocklayers were certified in Poland who says that they are more capable than the local blocklayers certified or not?

I heard about this a while ago and thought the Government isn't that blind, how wrong I was.

The .gov should be getting the local blocklayers certified ASAP but as long as these poles and others are allowed into other countries and employers employ them cheaply the situation can only get worse for all, not only local tradesmen.

I think the answer is that they should be paid the same as the local labour force and then maybe employers will not predudice through price, and where a persons from, with that in mind I'd like to think that the person who gets the job will be the most suitable for it.

[joeyconcrete]

Why don't the DTI just classify block-laying as brick-laying? (I was always under the impression there were brickies and laborers).

 

Nowadays I've lost sight of what the work permit system is actually meant to achieve?

[WilDDog]

Why don't the DTI just classify block-laying as brick-laying? (I was always under the impression there were brickies and laborers).

 

Nowadays I've lost sight of what the work permit system is actually meant to achieve?

 

That would be the most sensible idea, as for the work permit system why do we still have it? when this sort of thing is allowed to happen.

[Static]

The DTI should offer block laying certification courses to "Isle of Man workers" only. That way the local brickies get this certification and the Polish block layers then can't get the work.

 

Again, as others, nothing against foreign labour as long as it's not putting locals out of a job and undercutting them.

[Roger Smelly]

Let the government carry on doing what they are doing.

 

This is going to be a real problem in the future because it isnt just block laying they are doing.

 

What the poles out at jurby are doing is basically cladding the steel framed buildings with blocks, the brickwork is not structual because the steel frame does the load bearing.

 

What the main problem will be is when the job finishes your going to have at least 30 polish guys going around saying they are brick layers when they aint, they are labourers who have been taught how to lay blocks.

 

There is not much skill needed in blockwork because it it gets rendered so the bad work is hidden.

 

The main problem will be the people who get the cheap labour in and end up having to fire them because they know nothing about building control.

 

I am not against polish labour i think everyone deserves a fair crack but if they go around and cause more trouble than they are worth then whats the point ?

 

If the government gave the prison contract to a local company you probably would not even have this problem.

 

O yeah and where is the irish building firm when the job is finished ?

 

Back on the boat counting the coppers or is that notes

[manxman8180]

Quite a detailed post of which much is correct, however, there are a few inaccuracies, and things that require clarification:

For this reason the DTI, against the wishes and recommendations of the Employers Federation, have decided that blocklaying is to be included on the list.......

I believe that it has gone to consultation with the industry?? So nothing has been decided as this stage. Recommended maybe, but not decided.

 

and that they will offer training courses in order the certify them as craftsmen

Factually incorrect. A 'pub rumour, I'm afraid.

 

What the main contractor may be doing in this case is exploiting a loophole in the system, whereby if they clasify someone in a certain trade, which is not included within the 13 trades specified, then they need not (and indeed can not) register them.

 

Therefore, these chaps can be granted a work permit without the prior need for registration as a craftperson.

 

What the DTI are saying, is that if this is a sufficiently recognised skill, it should be included on the list fo trades, therefore, forcing anyone wishing to be employed as a 'blocklayer' to have their credentials checked and verified. Surely this is a good thing, No?

 

It is in effect trying to close the loophole. It may well be after the horse has bolted so to speak (mixed metaphors i know), but it would solve the problem of people questioning the skills and ability of these workers.

 

Now, there may be an argument that the trades are sufficently similar to be, in effect, the same thing. But that's not what your post really gets into.

 

If it really bothers you, make sure you have your say in the consultation.

 

What the main problem will be is when the job finishes your going to have at least 30 polish guys going around saying they are brick layers when they aint, they are labourers who have been taught how to lay blocks.

But they wont be registered as such, therefore, they can call themselves what they want, but they won't have classifciation as a Brick Layer under any Government scheme.

 

If the government gave the prison contract to a local company you probably would not even have this problem.

Did any local companies tender? I would doubt that any local firms would be big enough to carry out such a job. And it is a bit of a moot point, as there are many local contractors working on the project and making a handsome buck to boot.

[inspector]

Quite a detailed post of which much is correct, however, there are a few inaccuracies, and things that require clarification:

For this reason the DTI, against the wishes and recommendations of the Employers Federation, have decided that blocklaying is to be included on the list.......

I believe that it has gone to consultation with the industry?? So nothing has been decided as this stage. Recommended maybe, but not decided.

 

and that they will offer training courses in order the certify them as craftsmen

Factually incorrect. A 'pub rumour, I'm afraid.

 

What the main contractor may be doing in this case is exploiting a loophole in the system, whereby if they clasify someone in a certain trade, which is not included within the 13 trades specified, then they need not (and indeed can not) register them.

 

Therefore, these chaps can be granted a work permit without the prior need for registration as a craftperson.

 

What the DTI are saying, is that if this is a sufficiently recognised skill, it should be included on the list fo trades, therefore, forcing anyone wishing to be employed as a 'blocklayer' to have their credentials checked and verified. Surely this is a good thing, No?

 

It is in effect trying to close the loophole. It may well be after the horse has bolted so to speak (mixed metaphors i know), but it would solve the problem of people questioning the skills and ability of these workers.

 

Now, there may be an argument that the trades are sufficently similar to be, in effect, the same thing. But that's not what your post really gets into.

 

If it really bothers you, make sure you have your say in the consultation.

 

What the main problem will be is when the job finishes your going to have at least 30 polish guys going around saying they are brick layers when they aint, they are labourers who have been taught how to lay blocks.

But they wont be registered as such, therefore, they can call themselves what they want, but they won't have classifciation as a Brick Layer under any Government scheme.

 

If the government gave the prison contract to a local company you probably would not even have this problem.

Did any local companies tender? I would doubt that any local firms would be big enough to carry out such a job. And it is a bit of a moot point, as there are many local contractors working on the project and making a handsome buck to boot.

 

Some nice points there Manx dude.

 

The main point that I can see, from the original post, is that the Poles are here doing blocking only.

Blocking is, quite clearly, unskilled labour and therefore the Polish guys are labourers - no more no less ! Why would a certified tradesman want to do unskilled work when they can get skilled work for far more loot?

 

I think that they are labour only contractors and don't see a problem.

 

Re the point about local companies getting the contract - just look at Quiggies, Ardern and Druggan and a n other whose name I can't recall. They banded together a small company, purely for the prison contract, and won the tender. Individually, they weren't big enough but together they were successful.

[manxman8180]

Exactly - it proves that a bit of forward thinking by local organisations can be successful.

 

A lesson for others maybe.

[feelslikeitshould]

My real gripe is why they have been allowed Work Permits in the first place. The DTI have, up 'til now, maintained that Work Permits aren't to be given to construction workers working on Government schemes who aren't covered by at least one of the crafts under the scheme. As I've said, blocklaying is not part of the scheme so why are have the Poles even been allowed to come here to work? As well as that, they aren't certified or registered. Brickies have been laying blocks on the island for years without the need for a separate certificate, the Government have allowed themselves to be manipulated and are willingly going along with breaking most of the rules they've set, not only for the scheme but also for Work Permits.

 

I think the Employers Federation has a useful role, the brickies I know of who are aware of this happening and strongly oppose it, wouldn't have known unless the they'd been told by the Fed.

 

With regards to training on the island for a blocklayers certificate, I was told that by someone who have spoken to the DTI about it in the last few days.

 

Edit to add a bit more....

[WTF]

the poles will have work permits because the prison job is likely behind schedule and going over budget. the quicker and cheaper its done the better. they were crying out for electricians a while ago. when it starts failing within a few months of use like the hospital, we will then get the 'i didn't know' brigade uncovering their eyes and ears and covering their arses instead.