Mezeron & Steam Packet Master Thread

[wideload]

That is true, as I've said I agree Fastcraft are an out dated, expensive, inefficient type of vessel. That is a IOM Government requirement not a SP one. I would think the SP would be more than happy just to use conventional ships, but apparently the general public like getting from A to B in the fastest possible time.

dont need a fast craft for that, the Lady used to tootle along at a fair rate of knots

[ManxBaz]

When she was new the lady had a service speed of 21 knots. After her midlife refit she done 18-19 knots, about the same as the BMC.

[acorn]

I'm old enough to remember the proposed hovercraft service from Fleetwod in the 1960's, which did not take off due to wave height operating restrictions, even in summer, and the Stella Marina and Norwest Laird , also in the 1960's from Fleetwood, which lasted only 3 years, passengers only as well as the ManxLine/IOMSPCo competition between 1978 and 1984, that drove both to the brink of bankruptcy and resulted in a shot gun merger and the passing out of Manx shareholding and local control and eventual loss of independence of the Steam Packet. In the early part of 1984, may have been '85, the Steam Packet was on the brink, they had not issued their summer schedules, they had a duff boat, operating out of docks in Liverpool, not the landing stage, and we all faced the prospect of loss of service, damege to the TT and tourism as well as much more infrequent services. The uncertainty was not good.

 

 

 

Like you John I go back a long way, Victoria, Viking or Liverpool and North Wales Steamship Company's St Seriol from Llandudno, anybody else remember those days? Probably not I'm just a sad old git.

 

Anyway, so far as I know John no passenger ship serving the island has ever worked out of Liverpool docks. Certainly not post WW2, can't be sure pre WW2, doubt it though. The old cargo only ships, Peveril, Conister etc. used to go into the dock system at Liverpool, Brunswick dock for many years, as I recall. Passenger services however, certainly not.

[John Wright]

The ill fated ship they acquired from Malta, which did not work properly, and was effectively unseaworthy after its expensive refit worked out of the lock gated dock basin behind the floating landing stage for about a season in 1984 or 5. I forget its name, the ship that is.

 

This was the one that, to save money on, they used Dr Corlett, a director, as well as marine architect, to do the survey and design work, and then all ended up being sued

 

I have photos of me on either the St Seriol or St Tudno

 

edited to add Monas Isle VI, I think, formerly Spirit of Free Enterprise III

[John Wright]

What else McQuarrie owns in infrastructure in the Brituish Isles, apart from IOMSPCo, Wightlink and Condor

 

Also owned by them are South East Water, Birmingham Airport, Bristol Airport, M6 Toll, M1-A1 link, BBC Broadcast and Arqiva.

[guzzi]

Doing away with the UA and letting the market provide solutions isn't a utopian dream. It is how air services to and from the Island are provided, and the outcome for all of us appears to me to be very positive. We have three daily routes to London provided by two operators, daily routes to Belfast, Dublin, Liverpool, Edinburgh, Glasgow. We have innovative route start ups such as Gloucester and Anglesey, and weekly flights to Geneva. Over the years, operators have come and gone, but we are still well served. Most of the moans about air services on this forum seem to be about the publicly owned elements, the airport itself and regulation.

 

I realise that having a free market for sea services might well lead to the loss of uneconomic services, but that would only happen because there was not enough demand on those routes to allow operation at a profit. We would see innovation, perhaps the 'drop off' freight stops on established Irish Sea routes that other posters have mentioned. Remember, it was competition from Manx Line that introduced Ro-Ro services in the first place. The Steam Packet were still craning vehicles off and on their vessels in a fashion appropriate to the 1950s!

Edited February 20, 2011 by guzzi

[ManxBaz]

Comparing air and sea is like comparing chalk and cheese, they are two totally different markets.

The idea of ships stopping off to pick up freight would not work, as I've already said why would companies inconvenience their own customers and risk losing them to rivals and add hours onto a journey for what to them would be an insignificant number of trailers, added to that the island would lose control of it's sea routes. Plus the basic fact that all the ro ro vessels you see passing the island are too big to use Douglas harbour and the majority of them don't carry passengers.

When Manxline started the SP had the side loading vessels with the spiral ramps at the stern. Craning vehicles on and off had ceased many years previous.

[Lost Login]

Doing away with the UA and letting the market provide solutions isn't a utopian dream. It is how air services to and from the Island are provided, and the outcome for all of us appears to me to be very positive. We have three daily routes to London provided by two operators, daily routes to Belfast, Dublin, Liverpool, Edinburgh, Glasgow. We have innovative route start ups such as Gloucester and Anglesey, and weekly flights to Geneva.

 

And how many of the routes are in direct competition with each other. If I want to fly to London I do not get a flight to Liverpool.

 

Equally generally there is no competition on the same route and when there has been in the recent past one of the airlines has quickly pulled out. And this is where there is potentially more capacity for competition as in respect of the ferry one return sailing per day would probably accomodate the Islands requirements for 4 or 5 months a year. In respect of the flights on a couple of the main routes that is not the case.

 

I realise that having a free market for sea services might well lead to the loss of uneconomic services, but that would only happen because there was not enough demand on those routes to allow operation at a profit.

 

Allegedly the passenger services much of the year are uneconomic so you would be happy to seee those go.

 

There is also a difference between something being profitable and maximising profit. You might be able to run a profitable route by running the Ben twice a day year around to Heysham. It might actually be more profitable only running once a day because you have cut back on variable costs and the boat is near capacity each sailing. In fact if demand slightly outsripped supply then even better for the SP in terms of maximising profit as you could raise prices to balance. Just as long as you do not leave enoough business behind to tempt a competitor or if you do you can blow them put of the water.

 

Presently if you ravel on the SP regularly you can see that supply outstrips demand at many times of the year as there is plenty of spare capacity. A free market may bring in the advantages you state, I believe that it is much more likely to see in the long term supply being stripped back more in line with demand and there being no control over prices.

[guzzi]

I am happy to stand corrected regarding craning vehicles off and on SP vessels. However, Manx Line did introduce true Ro-Ro services with a linkspan. My point is that competition generates innovation. It's quite true that the IoM Government would lose control of it's sea routes. That's part of the point - the market would 'control' the routes, responding to demand.

 

I also take your point regarding existing vessels. The point is, that commercial players would be free to respond in any way they believe to be viable.

 

Air and Sea are not totally different markets. They compete directly for foot passengers, as Mark Woodward has stated on the SP web site. However, even if they were completely different, that does not mean that a free market regulatory approach is not applicable across the two markets.

[lancslad]

The ill fated ship they acquired from Malta, which did not work properly, and was effectively unseaworthy after its expensive refit worked out of the lock gated dock basin behind the floating landing stage for about a season in 1984 or 5. I forget its name, the ship that is.

 

This was the one that, to save money on, they used Dr Corlett, a director, as well as marine architect, to do the survey and design work, and then all ended up being sued

 

I have photos of me on either the St Seriol or St Tudno

 

edited to add Monas Isle VI, I think, formerly Spirit of Free Enterprise III

 

 

The Mona's Isle (VI) was built as the Free Enterprise III for Townsend Car Ferries by Werft Gusto, Schiedam, Holland in 1966. To my knowledge she never operated from inside the Liverpool dock system, and apart from her infamous trip to Dun Laoghaire, she was confined to the Heysham route. It was suggested by a Mr. Young (from Island Express) at the time the SPC acquired the MI (VI) that she could load freight in the dock system and then head for the landing stage to board passengers and cars, she'd then supposedly run at 20 knots to Douglas.

 

The sad sorry business of the MI (VI)'s conversion led to the resignation of Dr. Corlett from the SPC board and the commencement of legal proceedings against Burness Corlett, the company he owned and led. The litigation was settled out of court in the end.

[pongo]

The thing of it is though Lost Login is that what we have at the moment is a neither one thing not the other solution.

 

If a monopoly is the best solution (in terms of for example preserving unprofitable aspects etc) then it should be effectively run as a not for profit national company (like, say, SNCF) .... ie at break-even point - or even to some extent subsidised via income tax - including properly taxing companies etc. Having it subsidised by putting the costs on freight passes on those costs to the public - effectively like taxation - but uniformly rather than progressively. Any profits should be re invested only in the services or paid out in wages.

[guzzi]

Lost Login, there is direct competition on the Ronaldsway to Liverpool route where you may choose between Flybe and Easyjet, and on Ronaldsway to London where you may choose between Flybe and Aer Arran, and between Luton and Gatwick options for Flybe.

 

Yes, supply will match demand as closely as possible. That seems like a sound principle to me.

[Lost Login]

The thing of it is though Lost Login is that what we have at the moment is a neither one thing not the other solution.

 

If a monopoly is the best solution (in terms of for example preserving unprofitable aspects etc) then it should be effectively run as a not for profit national company (like, say, SNCF) .... ie at break-even point - or even to some extent subsidised via income tax - including properly taxing companies etc. Having it subsidised by putting the costs on freight passes on those costs to the public - effectively like taxation - but uniformly rather than progressively. Any profits should be re invested only in the services or paid out in wages.

 

I never said it was the best model.

[Lost Login]

Lost Login, there is direct competition on the Ronaldsway to Liverpool route where you may choose between Flybe and Easyjet, and on Ronaldsway to London where you may choose between Flybe and Aer Arran, and between Luton and Gatwick options for Flybe.

 

Yes, supply will match demand as closely as possible. That seems like a sound principle to me.

 

And on the Liverpool route are Easyjet really competing and trying to make a profit by one flight a day or just meeting some obligations to given to Liverpool Airport.

 

In respect of London Flybe & Aer Arran in my opinion operate different routes for different markets. Equally in respect of Luton & Gatwick there is also some overlap but it is not in my opinion huge.

[Barrie Stevens]

Comparing air and sea is like comparing chalk and cheese, they are two totally different markets.

The idea of ships stopping off to pick up freight would not work, as I've already said why would companies inconvenience their own customers and risk losing them to rivals and add hours onto a journey for what to them would be an insignificant number of trailers, added to that the island would lose control of it's sea routes. Plus the basic fact that all the ro ro vessels you see passing the island are too big to use Douglas harbour and the majority of them don't carry passengers.

When Manxline started the SP had the side loading vessels with the spiral ramps at the stern. Craning vehicles on and off had ceased many years previous.

 

The above is perfectly correct. No other operator ...and that is all they are....would want to deviate (That is the correct term)....save by inducement (and that is also the correct term)....to and from the Isle of Man for what little is on offer.

 

The Island might seem important to people who live there but in the great scheme it is nothing.

 

In fact it is well and truly served by the present set up awkward though it may be and a bit high-handed. It may seem like a closed shop in effect but also a closed shop which captures a regular service and holds it. Remember, the SP is obliged to make capital investments in terms of millions over time for its use of the Linkspan and if this were open to Freelances they would not have an incentive to commit.

 

I explained this very early on when this topic arose and sure enough, as I pointed out, Mezeron with their chartered tonnage and minimal commitment, just up and ran when the going got tough.

 

Mezeron was not trying to set up another Steampacket. It was doing what all Operators do, cream off the best and in this instance use cheap bottom of the market tonnage at low rates to turn the box traffic its way. It certainly did not want the Ropax stuff as tonnage could not be so cheaply acquired for the short term.

 

It will always be thus which is why you have accorded the Linkspan to one Owner and who is an Owner not an Operator who simply charters in as and when and can equally cut and run.

 

The same appies to Consortia where tonnage is pooled and scheduled. They have no hestitation in just dropping a port or two if it does not pay!

 

Once the SP had gone and the Linkspan open then I assure the Operators and Consortia would happily come to the Island "by inducement" and in the absence of the SP you would be really charged for their calling in!

 

The Island's market is so small that if you open it up for a free for all RoPax etc you will merely dilute any current attractiveness it has.

 

Comments by politicians that "there is enough for all" have to be seen in this context...and have they ever run a shipping line?

 

Another factor any other Owner or Operator would be wary of is the political nature of the Island's shipping links. Just as Mezeron cut and ran so could Tynwald suddenly turn round and put restrictions on the Linkspan in favour of some other Owner or Operator if the "freemarket" situation, were there to be one, turned sour. (This tends to put people off making a commitment to the Isle of Man)

 

Incidentally, the Island does not control its own sea-routes. It has control of who uses its port facilities. The rest of the sea is free. The seaward limits mean nothing in this context.

 

The McQuarie set up and finance is a bit sad but I ask you....other than the SP what choice have you got if you want security....Prices and service? See Tynwald and they won't rock the boat!

 

Many years ago I played a large part helping my late father and the Greek owner N D Papalios establish Volta Lines between N Europe and West Africa and then Alpha West Africa Lines and Alpha East Africa Lines.

 

We had thirty owned ships and "did a Mezeron" with the established lines ie creaming it off the top. Then the market turned and we could get more on charter and we did what we said we would not, "cut and run". Result? The established service was stronger than ever, charged even more and the politicians ...who had seen us as the "saviour" and accorded many privileges.... had such a fright it was a case of "never again".

 

I see the Island and the SP in the same position.

 

"If it ain't actually bust...don't fix it!"

 

Anyway, how are you gonna legally wrest the Linkspan back? I mean, how bad does that look? Like I said, Isle of Man sea transport has too many political strings attached and is not thus all that attractive.

 

Hope this helps (After all, I live "across" but I am an SP user and frankly have never had cause to complain)