The Great Game Revisted: Ukraine, Russia and the West

[Chinahand]

Looks like Putin has decided to go noisy rather than allow his proxies to be defeated.

 

Goodness knows how it's going to end - sadly it looks like there will be many more deaths.

 

Large scale weaponry and fielded armor - Ukraine is a lot bigger than Georgia, but heck it's politicians are facing a war of attrition with the prospect of its Eastern areas remaining violent and sources of instability for years to come.

[pongo]

the prospect of its Eastern areas remaining violent and sources of instability for years to come.

I cannot understand why they do not allow the east to re join Russia if that is what the people there want. It seems the obvious solution.

[Chinahand]

A process like that happening in Scotland takes years. I agree if a population is big enough and wants to leave then countries should accommodate them - but equally just willy nilly changing borders is a recipe for chaos - autonomy etc should be tried before secession.

 

What is happening in Ukraine isn't in anyway acceptable - it is a power grab and with significant Russian populations through out Eastern Europe puts at risk the territorial integrity of multiple countries.

[Lxxx]

A process like that happening in Scotland takes years. I agree if a population is big enough and wants to leave then countries should accommodate them - but equally just willy nilly changing borders is a recipe for chaos - autonomy etc should be tried before secession.

 

What is happening in Ukraine isn't in anyway acceptable - it is a power grab and with significant Russian populations through out Eastern Europe puts at risk the territorial integrity of multiple countries.

What is happening in Ukraine may be a power grab but it is happening from both sides. From NATO in the west and Russia from the east. The Ukrainians just happen to be pawns in a bigger game of geopolitical chess.

[woolley]

He's going to take a land corridor to Crimea and incorporate whatever Russian sympathising territory he can take on the way. That looks pretty obvious.

[Truth Seeker]

The reason for the recent hysteria about Ukraine is because they had two bad defeats at the hands of pro Russian separatists. With Obama droning on about how Russia has supported the separatists, which they have, but he does seem a bit vague on the subject of Billions of Western money going to Ukraine.

 

Ukraine Accuses Russia Of Launching Invasion, Then Promptly Retracts. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-28/ukraine-accuses-russia-launching-invasion-then-promptly-retracts

[spook]

It's a crying shame that the USA don't keep their noses out of world affairs. They have done and continue to do NOTHING unless it is benefit to themselves. Worse yet they manipulate other countries out of nothing other than self interest and create no end of trouble that they then exploit. In this case the Ukraine legitimate government wee undermined by the combination of the USA and the EU in order to gain access to and so preclude from Russian use of the Russian ports in the Crimea, the Crimea that was in all respects a part of Russia other than resulted from convince following the break up of the USSR.

 

Now it seems Barrack Hussein Obama is trying to resurrect " The Red Under The Bed" for domestic political benefit on the basis that it's a thing that the average American can understand though in that he's probably right.

 

When it comes to the Ukraine and the Crimea if we back Obama and his provocative trouble making in my opinion we are backing the wrong horse.

[woolley]

I'm not anti-American as I know that there are far more malign forces in the world that could be spending six times as much as anyone else on "defence". I had to chuckle at their protests about the Chinese aircraft coming near and showing their aircraft its weapons - off China. I wonder what they'd have said had it been off Los Angeles.

[spook]

The staggering arrogance of the majority of American people is equalled only by their staggering ignorance.

 

I suspect the two are mutually supporting.

 

Whenever I had to visit the US and watched the land below as we flew over it the thing that always struck me was how little the US as a nation had achieved compared to the devastation they had wreaked on the lands and forests let alone the huge environmental damage they have been responsible for over the rest of the world.

[woolley]

The staggering arrogance of the majority of American people is equalled only by their staggering ignorance.

 

That is no doubt true of many, but I know a lot of really nice, generous and quite humble Americans who have done a great deal of good. Yes, they are patriotic, but I don't think their is anything wrong with that just because we have forgotten how to be.

[pongo]

A process like that happening in Scotland takes years. I agree if a population is big enough and wants to leave then countries should accommodate them - but equally just willy nilly changing borders is a recipe for chaos - autonomy etc should be tried before secession.

Isn't what has happened rather like Scotland (Ukraine) deciding to go independent but also including Northumberland, Cumberland and parts of Yorkshire. But the people in those counties are still feeling English (Russian). Surely much of Ukraine has been more or less Russian for many centuries and probably for as long as modern countries have existed ?

 

What is happening in Ukraine isn't in anyway acceptable - it is a power grab and with significant Russian populations through out Eastern Europe puts at risk the territorial integrity of multiple countries.

What I have read is that Moscow tends (chooses probably) to see all Russian speakers as essentially Russian where as the question of whether people identify as Russians is perhaps more significant. Many Russian speakers do not identify as Russian.

 

As you will know (what we all read) is that Russia has a long history of thinking in terms of zones of influence, buffers - of not wanting enemies on its borders. Good diplomacy is surely about understanding the other persons' perspective. And surely the lesson of the Cold War is that NATO and Russia should not stand nose to nose at a border.

[spook]

IMO NATO should be disbanded. It was created to address a particular threat that has now gone in spite of the recent acts of a Barack Hussein. NATO is now part of the problem, not a potential solution to any.

 

What is now needed is a body to address the reemerging and rapidly growing threat of jihad.

[Truth Seeker]

IMO NATO should be disbanded. It was created to address a particular threat that has now gone in spite of the recent acts of a Barack Hussein. NATO is now part of the problem, not a potential solution to any.

 

What is now needed is a body to address the reemerging and rapidly growing threat of jihad.

I agree NATO should have ended with the demise of the Soviet block. Ukraine should be independent, not part of the EU, NATO or Russia, but Russia should be allowed to keep its use of leased facilities in Sevastopol and Crimea.

 

Ukraine crisis: PM Yatsenyuk to seek Nato membership. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28978699

Edited August 29, 2014 by Truth Seeker

[pongo]

IMO NATO should be disbanded .. What is now needed is a body to address the reemerging and rapidly growing threat of jihad.

Jihad is a major irritation rather than a global threat. They're dangerous and annoying. But they are not going to nuke Europe or North America by accident. It's a different scale of problem. They have no centre which is why they continually morph and schism.

 

Disbanding NATO would surely imply abandoning rather than renewing Atlanticism and the whole move towards a global economy and freedom.

 

ETA: I think the thing is to be subtle - to move change in such a way that it feels natural.

Edited August 29, 2014 by pongo

[spook]

 

IMO NATO should be disbanded .. What is now needed is a body to address the reemerging and rapidly growing threat of jihad.

Jihad is a major irritation rather than a global threat. They're dangerous and annoying. But they are not going to nuke Europe or North America by accident. It's a different scale of problem. They have no centre which is why they continually morph and schism.Disbanding NATO would surely imply abandoning rather than renewing Atlanticism and the whole move towards a global economy and freedom.ETA: I think the thing is to be subtle - to move change in such a way that it feels natural.

Jihad is the biggest danger of them all. It is not a thing that is defeat able by conventional weaponry, nor is the jihad being fought only by conventional weaponry. Watch and see. No one more than me wants me to be wrong about this.