Chinahand

Are you advocating killing him as a terrorist?

The last time western trained troops met N. Korean ones the result was collapse, strategic genius and then stalemate with calls for the use of nuclear weapons. Hi hum

They? Or Some? The mainstream or the extreme? Israel is a diverse polity:

What do you actually know about Israel and its society. You are a caricature straight from the central casting for student useful idiots.

I disagree, both sides contain fanatics, but it is too simplifying to state both sides are ideological fanatics. Hamas is not the entirety of the Palestinians, and right wing settlers are not the entirety of the Israeli political spectrum. My view is that when you look at the two societies Palestinian society is far more ideological extremist than Israeli society, though as I have said above, I fully admit Israel does contain religious fanatics. Palestine is not a functioning democracy, the dominant ideologies are rejectionist and violently intolerant of moderate voices, they are dominated by zealotry and martyrdom which is totally uncompromising in its objectives. I think the actions of Hamas show this clearly. Helix etc keep going on about how October 7th wasn't day zero, as if this is some insight. Of course October 7th wasn't day zero and there is a long history of conflict prior to that. What is my view of that history? Well there have been periods when the political pendulums have created opportunities for peace when they have swung in sync, and other times when they have swung towards violence. The peace settlements with Egypt (1979), Jordan (1994), UAE, Bahrain, Morocco & Sudan (2020) are hugely important, as were the Oslo Accords (1995), the establishment of the PA and Israel's withdrawal from Gaza in 2005. I see these things as difficult, but overall sincere attempts to stop fighting and find a pathway to peace. My understanding is HeliX thinks it is reasonable for Palestinians to reject attempts to find peace based around a land for peace formular of the 1967 boundaries. I think that is very misguided and will result in many further tragedies. Israel is not going away. It has build Tel Aviv a city just as crowded as Gaza but far more vibrant, democratic and progressive and in the Nagev made the desert bloom via the incredible social phenomenon which are the Kibbutz. The Palestinians have been lead to disaster again and again by rejectionist ideologues fixated on war, while pragmatic voices have found few ways to peace. The last time there was a genuine possibility of peace was back in 2005 when Israel accepted the PA and withdrew from Gaza. I strongly dispute this was some trap ... Kadima was a huge opportunity and for it to be rejected a tragedy. The Palestinian bus bombing campaigns, knife attacks and total rejection of a path to peace with Hamas' take over of Gaza destroyed the Israeli peace party and ushered in 2 decades dominated by the Israeli right as the peace offerings of the left were rejected and bombed. A terrible period when the political pendulums on both sides swung to extremes and violence. The strangest part of this was the slow pragmatism of the wider Arab world, fed up with Palestinian extremism and the spread of Shi'ite revolutionary zeal within their own societies. The slow and groping attempts to create an Arab-Israeli alliance against Iran, is, in my view, what precipitated the current violence. Iran's interests coincided with Hamas' in rejecting and undermining the attempts to find a wider peace. I have said this 1000 times and will say it a 1000 times more I am sure. No society could experience a terrorist attack on the scale of October 7th and not wage war against the perpetrators. Hamas has chosen to fight house by house, tunnel by tunnel with the results being exactly the same as whenever this has occurred in military history, whether Berlin, Cain, Allepo, Grozny or any other urban battle scape. That is a terrible terrible thing and a tragedy for the Palestinian people. Anwar seriously hoped for a general genocidal uprising against the Jews - the blood soaked glory of a martyr rejoicing in slaughter. The outcome is a tunnel by tunnel war of attrition. Terrible. Where will it end? I don't know. I am reasonably sure the settlor zealots will be disappointed. I don't see a genocide and find the use of this word seriously overblown. The death toll is low compared to the slaughters Yemen, Syria, Sudan have produced. Millions of Palestinians will continue to live in, and will rebuild, Gaza and hopefully will be war weary enough to allow a pathway to peace to be found. The defeat of Hamas and its rejectionist ideology, a stable ceasefire, confidence growing cooperation on norms and a roadmap to a Palestinian state are needed. But I think it will take years. The reality of Israel and a peace settlement along the lines of the 1967 borders with land for peace swaps are the best that can be hoped for at the moment. In a few generations maybe open borders federation and a single state, but that would be for future politicians to articulate. There is zero prospect of Israelis giving up on the IDF and opening their borders to a society ideologically friendly to Hamas. It is student politics of the worst kind to pretend anything otherwise.

None, which is why it is so sad. A west too nervous of deploying the weaponry needed to win condemn millions to endure an endless war.

How much is much here? How many kilometres have Hamas built. How much of this connects into preexisting basements and bomb shelters built prior to the Israeli withdrawal?

Are you really unable to understand the idea of a fighting retreat? Just incredible cognitive dissonance. You are unable to accept evidence that Hamas fought from these tunnels with multiple Israelis killed even when protected by tanks and combat bulldozers, and retreated from them as the faced defeat while using side and undiscovered tunnels to launch attacks. Are you really so naive to say this isn't a reasonable description of events?

I think only a useful idiot could pretend that Hamas has not built a hugely extensive network of tunnels in Gaza. To try to say they were built by the Jews is about as antisemitic as you can get. The tunnels are being used by Hamas to resist the Israeli assault and hold the hostages. The slow systematic warfare to destroy them is a nasty business but a simple reality of war.

You really are being very desperate here. Yes Hamas left the tunnels taking as much as they could with them and trying to hide the reality ... But only the ideologically blind would try to say this isn't an extensive and important network linked into the hospital. Genuinely mate you aren't being rational here.

4 minutes ago, HeliX said: I've no doubt Hamas were in the hospital at some point, or the tunnels. What I'm objecting too is the IDFs near constant lies. But it isn't a lie that Hamas had a major command centre under the hospital. Your cognitive dissonance is informative.

Sorry but the video is documenting a very extensive network with data centres, control rooms etc under the hospital and interlinked into it. You are denying very clear evidence that Hamas used the hospital as a cover for it's operations. I really question why you are doing this.

There were extensive tunnels and data centres under the hospital that used it electric supply to power the computers and air supply.

A photo of a baby dead on its changing table clearly shot in the head but with the details smudged out was released early in the aftermath. That, and seeing actual footage of the terrorists excitedly discussing how their slaughter of kibbutzim would encourage a general slaughter, was more than enough for me to understand the nature of these murderous attacks and understand why the result would be general war against the organisation that had planned it in such meticulous detail. I'm not surprised at all that a house by house street by street campaign has been necessary. That is the nature of a battle against an ideologically fanatical enemy.

Erm ... I always try to be aware of my biases but something feels wrong about this video. It is a very challenging issue. There is no doubt that the civilian population of Gaza have been subjected to terrible crimes. I fully admit that. But this video is odd. I'm not sure about it. As I say I fully admit there have been terrible crimes. But acknowledging that doesn't mean I have to accept every video as true. Thoughts?