RIchard Britten Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 11 minutes ago, Rog said: The UN is hardly a credible forum. Certainly more so than MF... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 Where does Israel lie in the pantheon of nations? It is a mass of contradictions in my view. Internally, a thriving democracy, with a vibrant free press, a powerful and independent court system, and a culture which values innovation and independent thought and action. Its occupation is a running sore terribly damaging its reputation especially with its blockade of Gaza, but also with the petty apartheid of check-points and papers throughout the West Bank and its continual push to create settler enclaves on occupied land. My understanding is that the IDF is hugely careful in its operations - far more so than the Russians in Grozny, the Yanks in Fallujah, Assad in Iblid, and the Saudis in Yemen, but that is little consolation to the thousands maimed by its operations. Also, when it comes to treating people oppressively multiple states - many of them Arab - have just as bad, if not far worse, reputations. But a nation state disappearing and torturing their own people is condemned far less than Israel's repressions in Gaza and the West Bank. Morality is a difficult thing - a wrong is a wrong, but then people compare. Richard Britten is going on about Israeli genocide. That, to me, is to devalue the word and to be blind to what the word really means as it is put into action by ISIS and in South Sudan. Some of Israel's enemies are monstrously evil in the way only religious zealotry can be. My view is that overall Israel has a poor overall record - but there are many many worse. Sweden it aint, but North Korea it isn't either. The US and UK have done lots of nasty things, and Russia even worse. No Arab nation is anything like as internally free as Israel, and all have fought and fight just as nasty wars. I find the opprobrium aimed at Israel disproportionate, but the Richard Britten's disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhtred Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 3 hours ago, RIchard Britten said: Certainly more so than MF... Barely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhtred Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 56 minutes ago, Chinahand said: Where does Israel lie in the pantheon of nations? It is a mass of contradictions in my view. Internally, a thriving democracy, with a vibrant free press, a powerful and independent court system, and a culture which values innovation and independent thought and action. Its occupation is a running sore terribly damaging its reputation especially with its blockade of Gaza, but also with the petty apartheid of check-points and papers throughout the West Bank and its continual push to create settler enclaves on occupied land. My understanding is that the IDF is hugely careful in its operations - far more so than the Russians in Grozny, the Yanks in Fallujah, Assad in Iblid, and the Saudis in Yemen, but that is little consolation to the thousands maimed by its operations. Also, when it comes to treating people oppressively multiple states - many of them Arab - have just as bad, if not far worse, reputations. But a nation state disappearing and torturing their own people is condemned far less than Israel's repressions in Gaza and the West Bank. Morality is a difficult thing - a wrong is a wrong, but then people compare. Richard Britten is going on about Israeli genocide. That, to me, is to devalue the word and to be blind to what the word really means as it is put into action by ISIS and in South Sudan. Some of Israel's enemies are monstrously evil in the way only religious zealotry can be. My view is that overall Israel has a poor overall record - but there are many many worse. Sweden it aint, but North Korea it isn't either. The US and UK have done lots of nasty things, and Russia even worse. No Arab nation is anything like as internally free as Israel, and all have fought and fight just as nasty wars. I find the opprobrium aimed at Israel disproportionate, but the Richard Britten's disagree. Good post - well argued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 It's the obvious lack of humanity showed by the Israelis in their approach to Gaza, their continuing settlement of the West Bank despite the whole world knowing it is wrong, and the seemingly over the top reactions to attacks that piss people off. They've been attacked first in all but one of the wars they've been involved in in their short history, been subjected to all kinds of horrible threats from their neighbours, suffered an enormous amount of ''terrorist' attacks in most major settlements etc and deserve sympathy and support from the world, but through their own statements and actions they undermine their case. The Santila and Sabra massacres are an interesting study into who the Israelis really are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 I swing from one side to the other with regards to Israel and Palestine, mainly affected by the human tragedy of it all. There is deep wrong on both sides and I wonder if the government's involved have any compassion or thought for the ordinary people? They are used as pawns in a game, have their thoughts and opinions manipulated when they know that peaceful cohabitation is the only solution to the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 2 hours ago, TheTeapot said: ... despite the whole world knowing it is wrong... Not the whole world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 2 hours ago, TheTeapot said: It's the obvious lack of humanity showed by the Israelis in their approach to Gaza, their continuing settlement of the West Bank despite the whole world knowing it is wrong, and the seemingly over the top reactions to attacks that piss people off. They've been attacked first in all but one of the wars they've been involved in in their short history, been subjected to all kinds of horrible threats from their neighbours, suffered an enormous amount of ''terrorist' attacks in most major settlements etc and deserve sympathy and support from the world, but through their own statements and actions they undermine their case. The Santila and Sabra massacres are an interesting study into who the Israelis really are. Oh for goodness sake, at least get the facts surrounding Sabra and Shatila right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 10 minutes ago, Max Power said: I swing from one side to the other with regards to Israel and Palestine, mainly affected by the human tragedy of it all. There is deep wrong on both sides and I wonder if the government's involved have any compassion or thought for the ordinary people? They are used as pawns in a game, have their thoughts and opinions manipulated when they know that peaceful cohabitation is the only solution to the problem. There can NEVER be peaceful cohabitation. The Qur'an prohibits it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 Max is right about the various islamist political factions using the 'palestinian' people (arab bedouin origin) as pawns in their strategy. Fatah, hamas, hezbollah, the PA and previously the PLO et al, advocate suffering is all part of the honourable 'cause' or more specifically, the age-old jihad against the Jews. Rog is right, those factions aren't interested in peace at any price. In years gone by, Israel has made various offers and concessions regarding the Strip and the West Bank, pulled down some of its settlements, vacated land, all to no avail. Whatever Israel pledges, It is never enough for the 'palestinians', the only way they'd be satisfied is total removal or annihilation of the Jews. Which will never happen. So the war will go on. The axis of power in Gaza and the West Bank will continue to use their people as human-shields, bargaining chips, media pawns, etc., in their unscrupulous pursuit of power. When their people die at the hands of the hated Jews, it's all part of the sacrifice of jihad and they are heralded as martyrs. This assignation goes a long way in the minds of uneducated and radicalised minds, it's a recruiting tool like no other for the fools with the catapults. Without the islamists and the requirement that Israel defends itself militarily against attack (from all sides) there might be reasonable and long-term peace but whilst Iran and others fight a proxy war against Israel by supplying the terrorists with weaponry, communications hardware and just as importantly, ideological support from the mullahs and imams, peace is a long way off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Rog said: Oh for goodness sake, at least get the facts surrounding Sabra and Shatila right. I haven't posted any facts about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 32 minutes ago, TheTeapot said: I haven't posted any facts about them. Well you didn't even get the names right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paswt Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 3 hours ago, Rog said: Well you didn't even get the names right. which are Reg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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