Donald Trumps Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Journalist Alistair Ramsay writes on CM election procedure suggested by Manx constitutional authority Prof Peter Edge http://www.iomtoday.co.im/article.cfm?id=52291&headline=Alistair Ramsay's column: Would electing a Chief Minister be democratic of a recipe for political deadlock?§ionIs=news&searchyear=2019&action=added#readComments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
war baby Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Revision of the system by which the CM is chosen is long overdue. The only similar method to the current Manx one which comes to mind takes place inside the Vatican! Prospective and aspiring new CM's should declare their interest in taking the post before the election. Their names could then be presented on a ballot paper and a single candidate selected by a STV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Trumps Posted November 30, 2019 Author Share Posted November 30, 2019 Pre-declaring does few CM candidates favours Only leaders of political parties should do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 +Candidates would feel that it is almost arrogant to pre declare as a CM candidate, they may not even get elected! Was it John Shimmin who hinted that he would stand for CM ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 1 hour ago, MrPB said: I don’t agree with his view at all. The IOM needs a Trump style populist candidate to shake things up but the establishment will be absolutely terrified of the prospect that with huge public backing some populist might sweep in and actually achieve something that might benefit people who don’t work for IOM Government. They will literally be scared of the prospect that some control over Tynwald might be ceded in this type of public election. Which explains why it's such a bad idea because Trump is an incredibly ineffective President. He hasn't actually done anything much because he all about making a big noise (and of course petty personal enrichment). If there's anything the Island doesn't need it's more people who are good at bullshitting - even if it's a different variety of bull. An elected CM would be in danger of being exactly the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJR Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 It is a terrible idea..Who would vote for the punter that stood for the first time and was so arrogant that he wanted to rise to the top immediately without wasting money as a Commissioner or Town Councillor...Someone with a brain that can see how this Island has no future because of excessive Government pensions.Someone with a vision that the NHS could actually hire English speakers from the UK that would be so better off taxwise by working here (£1000 a week for a consultant)..Someone that could recognise that by spreading roadworks all over the Island and having three people working on each would cause maximum disruption..A person that would say no to refugees because it would just store up future problems and at £250k for a Council House and £30k a year in benefits our own are more deserving.Not me FFS.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 27 minutes ago, MrPB said: So what is your solution then as how it stands is totally undemocratic. I’d rather run the risk of the odd populist than another grey suit Manx establishment stoodge who also does nothing for the duration of their term. No I'm just pointing out that the people who promise to 'shake things up' never really do. Self-proclaimed revolutions always end up in the same place. All it does is persuade the gullible that something is happening when it isn't and the underlying problems get worse. I'll repeat a comment I made on the thread we had when Daphne Cain raised the topic a month ago: Quote The report on The Appointment and Removal of the Head of Government of the Kiribati Republic is as erudite and interesting as you would expect from such distinguished authors. But the fact that they had to go to literally the other side of the world to get an example that was not really that similar to the way an elected Chief Minister would work on the Island, rather suggests it's a system that doesn't really work in any place. Kiribati is similar in that its government is drawn from the legislature rather than from outside it (as in the case with elected Presidencies in countries like France and the USA), but it is still an elected head of state rather than a Chief Minister. And Kiribatian history suggests that their system may tend to introduce new problems or reinforce existing ones, such as personality-based politics, clientelism, constant infighting and personal corruption[1]. I've referred before to the most prominent example of a separately elected Prime Minister, which was Israel in to 90s. This turned out to be a disaster with (as often in Kiribati) perpetual conflict between parliament and PM and only lasted a decade. In truth I can't really see what this proposal for, except acknowledging that the current system lacks democratic accountability. But this doesn't really sort out any of the real problems such as the use of departmental membership to suppress dissent and an over-mighty civil service. Indeed it might actually reinforce them. [1] There's also the rather odd way that the President is nominated, which is so complicated, random and prone to parliamentary corruption that it will probably be adopted to elect LegCo next time. That doesn't mean that there aren't ways in which the constitution can be improved - the obvious ones are to reduce departmental membership as Lisvane suggested (they reacted by increasing it) and electing LegCo. I think we also need to increase the number of legislators. Most importantly we need to elect people who will actually carry through reforms rather than sit back and take the perks. Incidentally Peter Edge is giving a talk on the topic: BORIS AND THE BERETITENTI: THOUGHTS ON THE POSITION OF CHIEF MINISTER at the Nunnery next month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJR Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Plus Alistair Ramsay is the original horses arse. He must chummy up to the editor (small case intended) of the IOM newspapers to write his absolute crap.Only a small Government pension Alistair....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finlo Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 40 minutes ago, SJR said: It is a terrible idea..Who would vote for the punter that stood for the first time and was so arrogant that he wanted to rise to the top immediately without wasting money as a Commissioner or Town Councillor...Someone with a brain that can see how this Island has no future because of excessive Government pensions.Someone with a vision that the NHS could actually hire English speakers from the UK that would be so better off taxwise by working here (£1000 a week for a consultant)..Someone that could recognise that by spreading roadworks all over the Island and having three people working on each would cause maximum disruption..A person that would say no to refugees because it would just store up future problems and at £250k for a Council House and £30k a year in benefits our own are more deserving.Not me FFS.... Are you saying they'd be a £1000 pound's a week better off or they could earn a £1000 a week? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJR Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 A bog standard Consultant (and one killed my father) would be £50k a year better off working on the Island than in England.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 "......Who would vote for the punter that stood for the first time and was so arrogant that he wanted to rise to the top immediately.." Actually, such a candidate that could be assessed as a talented, academic individual with a manifesto of clear thinking, sensible policies could easily be elected and go on to get the CM position. How often does one hear a person talking about the performance of their Govt that makes one think....... they should be PM. President etc.? A Trump/Johnson CM could be disaster for a small economy like ours. Those Countries have the Civil Service/ Advisors to curtail the excesses of a TRump like leader, they have the depth of intelligent back up to allow just enough ego massaging without any lasting damage. Here, we may not be able to curtail those 'popularist' ideas, encouraged by chanting voters, in time to lessen the long term harm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagman Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 Don't they just do this down the lodge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxy Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 Just think - a free vote by the majority of people? Would it happen? Nah!.... sounds like another Brexit crusade and would get in the way of the alleged brown envelopers of building and telecommunication firms.. There's enough freemasons as MHK's already and common people having a free shout and pick who THEY want!!! Blimey.... conscience and common sense... Nah! Can't happen, won't be allowed to happen and should anyone think otherwise, then it would take a consultative committee 20 odd years or so to discuss the err finer details and complexities of such an important step. Dream on........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbnuts Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 Isle of Man desperately needs a capable and strong CM. We so haven't got one with the incompetent Quayle . Not sure what the answer is but somebody putting themselves forward is so not the answer unless he or she is extremely capable. It's a bigger problem and one that needs sorted once and for all. The CS needs to be addressed and made accountable before we can move forward . They are out of control have lost track of where the money they waste comes from. Yes a very strong personality is so needed and anyone standing at the next election should only stand under a common goal of finally sorting out CS. , Inter-department conflicts and silo mentality that exists throughout government . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 On 11/30/2019 at 8:21 PM, MrPB said: Thanks for that but with total respect it isn’t really an answer. What would you do to make things better if you don’t think public elections are really the way to go? You either take a risk one way or the other. I’d rather the random risk of a Trump getting in (as at least random events are likely to create outcomes that can’t be controlled or predicted) with the almost guaranteed risk that the current system will just throw up another Manx establishment caretaker who will likewise do nothing other than allowing the bloat and the vested interests to continue for the few. Sorry I didn't reply to this before, but where did I say that I didn't think public elections were part of the solution? On the contrary I want to see more people in Tynwald in total (33 really isn't enough) and all of LegCo elected. I just don't think this particular solution is the best way to go and the danger of Trump-like windbaggery is only part of the reason. When it was tried in Israel it was a disaster and the fact that the only place that runs the system is one the other side of the world and sinking into the ocean suggests no one else is really impressed with the idea. In fact if you look at the way it operates in Kiribati it tends to encourage cronyism and instability (the only way that government decisions can be overturned is by calling a new election). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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