paswt

Parts of Onchan seem acceptable

Not strictly true in that a few marshals , after witnessing the 2 fatals and a few big "offs" at Casey's /Black Hut decided that marshalling wasn't for them. One a marshal with over 30 years experience and who had witnessed fatals previously said 'he thought as he had got older he was perhaps more sentimental and that was why it had hit him harder. Fair comment H d ,I'm now "done" as the powers that be have refused to even discuss safety improvements @ Casey's and Black Hut ( 9 offs including multiple riders and 2 fatals) . Sadly the marshals witnessing "offs" at the marshalling points do not take part in any investigation , their views are regarded as irrelevant and if persistent are labelled a "troublemaker". Just saying

The driver thought my performance was such that I should establish a racing team , got the T shirt😂

Excellent Roxanne , one more of "us" and one less of "them"😉, mind you I left it a bit late ( I had my bus pass)when I agreed to passenger for a few laps @ Jurby . I was told to hold on and nod my head up and down but in reality was about as much use as 56 lbs of 'Edwards'.🤣

Bit like the 5 'offs' @ "Casey's, including two 'fatals' , the CoC etc have still decided not to install air fencing, despite the recommendations of marshals . The ACU's statement of "improvements" ( referred to by DF ) ? Fine words but absolute bollocks when it comes to rider safety and leasing with marshals IMO .

I could pop round with a jar of "vick" 2bees ,hope you feel better soon .

I am/was a member of the IOM TTMA ( along with either 283 or 680 members , nobody seems sure 😉) and was notified of an EGM to wind up the company and transfer its assets to a new company ( TTMA ltd ). The EGA was adjourned as no information was given in relation to the assets/ liabilities of IOM TTMA. A new date was set for a reconvened EGM which again was adjourned. I have received no notification of when the adjourned EGM will be held. I understand the the TTMA Ltd have now taken over the assets of the old company and are in charge with 2 Members . Just saying

Max, as far as I'm aware the marshals @ Black Hut/Casey's have not been invited to attend an investigation by the powers that be into any incident .

I would venture to suggest that the marshals on the ground should be a party to the investigation .

I have marshalled (2008-2019) and have never been offered post incident support . My only concern is to prevent/ mitigate a further reoccurrence of incidents @ Casey's and Black Hut. Hope this helps.

The CoC/ motorsport team /TTMA ltd demonstrably do not wish to see statistics on serious crashes given that after 5 "offs" @ 'Casey's" including 2 fatals ( 2014 & 2018) they still refuse to even discuss the installation of air fencing . Similarly after 4 "offs" @ "Black Hut" ( 1 with 2 riders down and 1 with 3 riders ) where riders suffered severe lower leg injuries when coming into contact with the dwarf wall the CoC etc etc rejected the request to fix boarding to said wall. Just saying😡

It would be true to say that to hold an opinion and voice it which is other than that of the CoC is a breach of the ACU's "Code of Conduct ". The penalty for a marshal breaching the ACU's Code of Conduct is dismissal ( see the letter from Mr G Thompson MBE BEM to Mike Brown , formerly the chief Sector Marshal Sector 10. No reason has to be given and there is no right of appeal ( see the memorandum and Articles of Association TTMA LTD I have stated on an internet forum that I hold an alternative view , as did Mike Brown. Just saying

Gary Thompson held no position in the IOM TTMA either and had no authority to sack a marshal , however the IOM TTMA retrospectively confirmed his decision. The new marshals association ( TTMA ltd) has 2members who had to be ratified by the IOM Gov along with all the directors. The memorandum and articles of a association stipulated that any person could be sacked without being given a reason and they had no right of appeal . Given the above I would venture to suggest that the CoC is effectively under the control of IOM gov/ the 'motorsport team'.

The IOM government blacklists volunteers . Just saying

Credit should also go to Paul Philips ( AKA the big cheese in the Grand Fondu) who is 'in charge' , well according to him. just saying.

Oh do fuck off , if that's the best you can offer you really are a despicable little shit who thinks it acceptable to attempt to destroy the reputation of someone who has attempted to help this island , you should be ashamed of your self . Hope this helps.

"Time or inclination " , you clearly haven't a clue . Dr Glover's advice/help was rejected by those who were prepared to let folk die rather than admit their own abysmal lack of competence . For her to remain silent would IMO make her complicit and the easy way out for a coward such as yourself. I salute her Do not presume to speak for other posters ,( you cheeky young pup), you are for reasons best known to yourself clearly motivated by malice I am one of the Dr Glover's ardent supporters and I have not revised my opinion and regard your ill-informed outbursts as laughable as you seem incapable of providing any evidence for your ludicrous assertions. FWIW I was an EHO back in the mid 60's dealing with outbreaks of typhoid/ polio/ TB across . Would I be correct in assuming that your experience/ knowledge in relation to matters medical is similar to that of Mr Ashford ?

I attended an IMC in 2009 and a further one in 2012 and in 2015 I was told (in the TTMA office) that as I was not a DSM "it was hardly worth it" ( perhaps my age was a factor😉). The courses I attended did not address the removal of riders . Where I marshalled (Black Hut) we had line of sight back to Casey's , Casey's Advanced and beyond which meant that when we had an incident the riders were made aware by many waved yellows and, when we had 3 riders and 3 bikes on the road it was possible to bring the riders to a halt and request Race Control to red flag the practice. Thus the rider who initially hit the wall could be attended to by a para medic in the road and a first time marshal ( (who luckily for us happened to be St John trained). The other two riders were "walking wounded " fortunately. I take your point about the scoop stretcher Max but if there is evidence of leg or pelvic trauma then I would venture to suggest that the stretcher is split ( which is easier on the road that a grass bank as grass can get caught in the hinges) , saves 'rolling the casualty'. I am obliged by posters assurances that dragging a rider off the course etc would not result in further damage but if he/she ended up as a paraplegic I would be wondering if it may have been as a result of my actions . I'm not looking for an argument and appreciate others would , in similar circumstances, make their own decisions .I think, if questioned that , as an ex H&S enforcing Inspector I could justify taking the action and decisions I did . It's all a bit academic now as I will not be marshalling as I have no faith in an organisation and the individuals in charge that take such a cavalier attitude to rider safety as evidenced by refusing to even discuss the installation of air fencing at Casey's where riders died in 2014 and 2018 ( I'm not saying that they would have survived but their chances would have been , IMO, enhanced ).

I don't think that is the case (for me anyway), witnessing an incident is the last thing any marshal wants to see and perhaps it would be an idea for the organisers to contact the marshals individually and offer counselling and also discuss any issues arising from how any incident was dealt with by the team and if any improvements to the course could be made . At my point all marshals are/were asked what they were prepared to do in the event of an 'off' , many were understandably reticent to go to the aid of a rider and/or assist the paramedic so , unless we had a St John trained marshal so that was my role. Over the years we had marshals returning on a regular basis , either for a few or all the sessions so we were (IMO) a "team" ( we didn't always have a DSM) of friends who relied and trusted each other as opposed to having a DSM instructing the 'foot soldiers'. Sadly , IMO, the new system issues some instructions to marshals eg any rider on the road should immediately be dragged off onto the verge ( I appreciate that if the rider is just around a blind corner and in a position where they could be run over that may be appropriate but , bearing in mind that moving a fallen unconscious rider may result in severe /fatal spinal injuries, there may be a more 'acceptable' courses of action ) . The priority for me is the safety of myself/ my fellow marshals / the riders , not that the race/ practice should continue .

I ram not disputing that the police may be required to make a report after a fatal incident , indeed I remember the police visiting Casey's the following morning after the fatal incident in 2014 and they may have visited after the 2018 incident but it wasn't on the day or during closed roads . In both cases no other rider was involved , and as I understand it they were declared "racing incidents " and no blame could be attributed to any other rider so no possible manslaughter charge , no immediate police involvement. The marshal at Sulby Bridge confirmed ( when she marshalled subsequently at my point , as she had on many previous occasions ) that she had flagged riders down. She contacted the powers that be and they advised her that they had no record of her marshalling at Sulby Bridge , she drew their attention to a local newspaper photograph which confirmed her story . She was not called upon to give evidence to the enquiry. Just saying I had no 'specialist training 'prior to or after the 2 fatalities I attended but I did not ask anyone for counselling .that said the experience did upset one or two marshals and we spent time together going through the events that evening and later. I confess I slept badly the night following both incidents , but only one night ,perhaps it may have been worse if the deaths had not been instantaneous ( removed any chance of my first aid skills or lack of them had contributed to the riders death ) ? A couple of marshals decided they would find it difficult to continue marshalling , however I am still in touch with them and I feel they have come to accept what happened . Sorry didn't mean to 'go into one'

It is "Claimed" that the rider was instructed by a marshal . The official car , with 2 policemen on board were apparently going to the scene of an incident where only one rider had been involved ( and therefore had no reason to attend, "rubbernecking"?)). Did race control approve the course car being on the course and were all marshals advised? All riders were instructed at the 'riders briefing' that in the event of a red flag they would be escorted back to the grandstand following a Travelling Marshal, at reduced speed under "waved yellow flags" at all marshalling points. It was common knowledge ( via Race Control and Manx radio , if memory serves) that the riders would be returning to the grandstand against the course flow , but everyone knew ( or should have known) being led by a TM under waved yellows. I have known a rider to ignore a marshals instructions ( mine) after confirming that he had retired then subsequently firing up his bike and rejoining the course with cold tyres. I have also witnessed Mark Miller pull off the course onto the grass verge ( at Black Hut )and then , thought it acceptable to push the bike back onto the course against the flow of the course (while practice continued) and park it on the course against the wall . Riders have demonstrably been known to "go off on a frolic of their own" ..... Just saying Nothing has been confirmed to my knowledge so it's " ALL IFFS AND ANDS ". Previously after an incident a marshal was blamed ,arrested and initially charged with manslaughter until it was established that they were in no way responsible and the case was dropped. ....... In relation to the "flyers" being posted around the course I would have thought that a statement from Mr Thompson confirming or rejecting the contents would have been an idea . Just saying

Perhaps someone could advise the powers that be that Steve McLivenna lost his life at 'Casey's' in 2014 ,not 'the mountain mile' (as stated in 'wiki') . the identical place to where Adam Lyon died in 2018 . I was there and attended both incidents , NB Gary Thompson BEM MBE , that's 2 fatalities in 4 years in addition to the other 3 'Offs' I've attended at "Casey's" I still cannot understand why , given the above , the powers that be have decided that no air fencing is required , demonstrably rider safety is a minor issue (and that level of rider fatalities is acceptable) ,and it's more important to waste money on electronic screens that will serve no purpose (IMO). Just saying.

I would agree that the safety of the riders/marshals is the priority. I was reliably informed by a fellow marshal who attended an "incident management course" that when the the red button (on the tetra radio) is pressed Race control will not respond for 20 seconds , allegedly so the marshals can assess the situation and certain the identity of the rider etc in order to " fully appraise Race Control". This is all very well but when you are dealing with 3riders and bikes down/in the road an immediate red flag is the answer . When the radio is in a dead spot on the course and one has to resort to using the radio in the marshals hut the only sensible thing to do was to stop all the bikes and advise the riders that the session has been red flagged , so that's what I/we did ( we had about 20+ bikes stopped in the road before confirmation of the red flag ) . Frankly I cannot see any advantage in changing the old 'red flag' system , it worked and the money could have been better spent . FWIW on one occasion practice continued after we had a 2 bike incident . I was on the roadside ( on my knees ) looking after David Linsdell for over an hour while the Airmed doc dithered and couldn't make his mind up who ( David or Bernie Wright (sp?) ) should be taken to Nobles first while the bikes were still zipping through on waved yellows. By the time the riders were despatched both were showing the signs of hypothermia ( hardly surprising as it was raining and one rider had had his leathers removed) . The previous system that dictated that injured riders should be in Nobles within 15 minutes of the incident was preferable (IMO) but the self appointed experts are not interested in the views of those at the sharp end and see their role as issuing instructions ( without question ) to those they regard as their intellectual inferiors .

The decision in relation to the number of marshals at any point was determined by Race Control ( Black Hut 3 marshals and at Casey's 2 marshals were deemed adequate ) . Subsequently Race Control stated that the decision on manning was a joint decision by the DSM at every point and Race control . Initially nobody was prepared to accept responsibility of being a DSM at Black Hut /Casey's as there was no liaison with the marshals and racing continued with the previous 'adequate numbers' , and for a number of years we had no DSM at both points. It is not unreasonable to assert that in the event of an incident involving a fatality an advocate could state that the point was demonstrably undermanned and had the DSM advised Race Control then the race/practice would not have gone ahead and an individual would not have died , and the DSM was therefore culpable. I remember a CSM was arrested on a manslaughter charge a number of years ago. The case was not pursued as it was a case of 'passing the parcel of blame' based on no evidence whatsoever ( so nothing new there 😉) One could be forgiven for thinking that those in charge , many of whom are ex military, take the view that the marshals should 'just do as they are told and shut up' as stated in the ACU's "code of practice" ( referred to when the CSM , sector 10 was sacked). Just saying

I'd like to see air fencing installed at Casey's to reduce the risk for riders ( 5 "offs" including 2 'fatals' while I have marshalled there since 2009) , just wondering how many more deaths there needs to be before the CoC /TTMA/Motorsport team do anything ? If , god forbid there is another fatality then IMO the individuals referred to should all be facing a manslaughter charge. I will now not be marshalling as the ACU's code of practice requires me to endorse/adopt and applaud all of the acts and omissions of the CoC/TTMA ltd/Motorsport team............ And I just haven't (to remain silent is IMO to be complicit ).