Not The Bnp

[Declan]

/putting aside my nostalagia for the days when the forum didn't attract polititians, jurnos and those with an axe to grind for a moment

 

 

Thanks for the post JS. I think that is pretty close to the feelings of the majority of local residents. They want controls in place so that the character of the Island doesn't change but recognise that some new blood is need to prevent it stagnating.

 

/nostalgia mode back on.

[pontiuspilot]

we can sort our own problems out, we do not need the help of the bnp to bring about any changes to our immigration policy. as i said on the other thread thehy will work away at any little chink into which they can get a foothold, not unlike a cancer. theirs is always the politics of hate and division. it may be better to ignore them, than to allow them "the oxygen of publicity". treat them with the contempt that they deserve.

manx politics will run in the direction we want it to go here in the Isle Of Man, some bunch of thugs from across the water have no right to try and interfere with our island. the ira came here in the 70's to try a similar trick and failed, this will happen here too i am sure given the level of opposition to them that i have seen here.

to anyone tempted by them, don't be confused by the word national. the bnp and the SNP have nothing in common, in the same way that manx patriotism has nothing in common with the bnp. the bnp are natural enemies of celtic groups such as Meg Vannin, no one would accuse Meg Vannin of facism.

the Isle of Man is for all who wish to live here peacefully and legally, perhaps at some point we do need to control immigration, but that would be more in line with actions of the channel islands in trying to protect what green land they have left. we too are a small island and can only sustain so many people, but this is not an issue that turns on race, but practical neccessity.

ignore the bnp and it will go away.

incidentally, the bnp went to glasgow in recent times to try and recruit up there in the deprived areas, thinking that the people would be happy to blame their problems on immigrants, they got a shock when the locals literally kick the living daylights out of them and sent them packing, result, no bnp in glasgow.

not that i think violence is appropriate here, that is the sort of thing the bnp see as progress.

[T Reznor]

In regard to the MR interview it was a small part of approximately 20 minutes of questionning on the complex matter of immigration legislation. The main point being made was that we choose to incorporate appropriate legislation that suits the Island, without having to introduce the whole cost and bureaucracy of port controls which would affect all individuals travelling to/from the Island.

I have openly expressed my concern on the radio and in the Keys about the actions of the BNP, but feel they have already engendered more publicity than they deserve and will not add to that debate.

I agree wholeheartedly that immigration is a concern to a growing number of people on our Island, however the facts do not bear out the assumptions being made.

Our two main planks of protection are the work permit system and our benefits shcemes. People can only gain either if they are eligible to work and that a vacancy cannot be filled locally- people cannot arrive off the boat and attempt to claim any benefits, which is why we are unattractive to most illegal entrants. Of course there will be indivduals and employers who try and abuse the systems, but in general terms we have a much better protection than most jurisdictions.

This is not complacency and I acknowledge there are many issues which we must address - particularly ensuring that people coming to our Island to fill vacancies are integrated into our community and not excluded by economic or social factors. The matter is not going to go away, as we require a sufficient pool of labour to service the ever growing expectations of our society and this will inevitably require people to come here to live - the challenge will be to ensure that we all understand the benefits they bring and to make them join our community, rather than try to set up their own separated communities.

It will be interesting to see the Census figures when they are available, but current indicators are that there are fewer new residents arriving recently compared to previous times.

 

thank you for the comment, though the Government needs to be more pro-active in telling the man on the street that before the BNP warp the story and tell them it's only a matter of time etc, beacuse let's face it, it's not. We do not need Nazi's disguised as politicians on this Island and everyone should be made aware of these people's true beliefs.

 

What is also concerning is the fact that they have mentioned in their manifesto that they would intend to use the Island as some sort of base should they get any power. It goes without saying that would be the end of this beautiful Island.

[Stef]

Manx people with even 1 EU grandparent can freely live and work in the EU AFAIK. Is there any reason why people from the EU shouldn't be allowed to live and work on the IOM?

 

I'm pretty sure that's not true. I've got the following in my passport: "Holder is not entitled to benefit from EC provisions relating to employment or establishment" (Yes, I have one parent who's an EU citizen.) My brother's passport does not have this as he was born in England.

 

When I was younger my folks spoke to the government about this and were told that the stamp was correct and part of the IoM's arrangement with Europe to allow them to maintain local control of immigration. So, as far as I'm aware, people from the EU do NOT have any automatic rights to live or work here.

 

(Edit - changed passport text from bold to italic)

[TheScope]

Manx people with even 1 EU grandparent can freely live and work in the EU AFAIK. Is there any reason why people from the EU shouldn't be allowed to live and work on the IOM?

 

I'm pretty sure that's not true. I've got the following in my passport: "Holder is not entitled to benefit from EC provisions relating to employment or establishment" (Yes, I have one parent who's an EU citizen.) My brother's passport does not have this as he was born in England.

 

Whereabouts in your passport is that stamp placed Stef? Can't find it in mine.

 

My mother was english and my father is manx, and I was born on the island BTW.

[simon]

According to Protocol 3

 

ARTICLE 6

 

IN THIS PROTOCOL , CHANNEL ISLANDER OR MANXMAN SHALL MEAN ANY CITIZEN OF THE UNITED KINGDOM AND COLONIES WHO HOLDS THAT CITIZENSHIP BY VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT HE , A PARENT OR GRANDPARENT WAS BORN , ADOPTED , NATURALIZED OR REGISTERED IN THE ISLAND IN QUESTION ; BUT SUCH A PERSON SHALL NOT FOR THIS PURPOSE BE REGARDED AS A CHANNEL ISLANDER OR MANXMAN IF HE , A PARENT OR A GRANDPARENT WAS BORN , ADOPTED , NATURALIZED OR REGISTERED IN THE UNITED KINGDOM . NOR SHALL HE BE SO REGARDED IF HE HAS AT ANY TIME BEEN ORDINARILY RESIDENT IN THE UNITED KINGDOM FOR FIVE YEARS .

 

If I'm understanding that right then the EU seems to say that you're a UK citizen (and logically therefore also an EU citizen) if any of your grandpaparents was a UK citizen or you've been resident in the UK for 5 years.

 

All opinion welcome. I'm not a lawyer

[The Old Git]

Whereabouts in your passport is that stamp placed Stef? Can't find it in mine.

 

My mother was english

 

That's why you don't have the stamp in yours

[TheScope]

Whereabouts in your passport is that stamp placed Stef? Can't find it in mine.

 

My mother was english

 

That's why you don't have the stamp in yours

 

What was confusing me is that Stef says he has one EU parent. Surely that makes him the same status as me, or does it depend on which parent was EU?

[sarahc]

Sorry to keep this off topic:

I married an Englishman, does that mean the stamp can be 'taken out' of mine?

[The Old Git]

Sorry to keep this off topic:

I married an Englishman, does that mean the stamp can be 'taken out' of mine?

 

I wouldn't think so. My wife doesn't thave the stamp in hers and it doesn't affect my status

[The Old Git]

What was confusing me is that Stef says he has one EU parent. Surely that makes him the same status as me, or does it depend on which parent was EU?

 

I've no idea, sorry.

 

I was under the impression that if an EU citizen could legally enter the UK then they could also enter the IOM (although they would still require a work permit). That was why I thought it a bit one sided and unfair that a Manx person "with the stamp" couldn't live and perhaps work in the EU if they so wanted. In other words millions of them could, in theory, come and live over here but a few thousand of us couldn't live over there.

 

Perhaps that isn't the situation? I don't know.

[Stef]

If I'm understanding that right then the EU seems to say that you're a UK citizen (and logically therefore also an EU citizen) if any of your grandpaparents was a UK citizen or you've been resident in the UK for 5 years.

 

All opinion welcome. I'm not a lawyer

 

Cheers for the link, Simon, looks interesting.

 

Hmm, legal speak It doesn't make any reference with regards to "UK therefore EU" as that's a separate matter but that would be a logical inference. Reading the paragraph...

 

You're a Manxman and "citizen of the United Kingdom and colonies"

IF

You, a parent or grandparent was born, adopted, naturalized or registered in the Isle of Man

AND

You, both parents and all four grandparents were NOT born, adopted, naturalized or registered in the UK

OTHERWISE

You're a "citizen of the United Kingdom and colonies"

 

I didn't think the Isle of Man is part of the UK, correct? Strange how Manxmen are then also classed as citizens of the United Kingdom and colonies, or is that logically separate as in "United Kingdom" and "colonies", with Manxmen classed as the "colonies" part? Clear as mud

 

It does explain why the stamp's there in mine: my dad's German and the removal of the stamp would seem to ONLY apply to UK parents or grandparents, of which I have neither.

 

(Edit - spelling)

[LoneWolf]

I've no idea, sorry.

I was under the impression that if an EU citizen could legally enter the UK then they could also enter the IOM (although they would still require a work permit). That was why I thought it a bit one sided and unfair that a Manx person "with the stamp" couldn't live and perhaps work in the EU if they so wanted. In other words millions of them could, in theory, come and live over here but a few thousand of us couldn't live over there.

Perhaps that isn't the situation? I don't know.

 

As explained to me by the passport office about 2 years ago ..

If you have British citizenship [and that includes the Manx] you can live in the EU with no problem.

Manx nationals have no right to work in the EU outside the UK and Ireland unless they have at least one grandparent or parent born in England, Scotland, Wales etc and have made that declaration when applying for their passport.

it works the other way around too. People can come here to live but they cant necessarily work here unless they can gain a work permit or satisfy one of the conditions applying to students.

[Stef]

Cheers LoneWolf, that makes sense. Here's the legal wording from the document Simon linked:

ARTICLE 2

 

THE RIGHTS ENJOYED BY CHANNEL ISLANDERS OR MANXMEN IN THE UNITED KINGDOM SHALL NOT BE AFFECTED BY THE ACT OF ACCESSION . HOWEVER , SUCH PERSONS SHALL NOT BENEFIT FROM COMMUNITY PROVISIONS RELATING TO THE FREE MOVEMENT OF PERSONS AND SERVICES .

 

Searching for "the free movement of persons and services" gives this:

Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe - Protocols and Annexes - FINAL ACT

 

Scroll down to SECTION 2 - FREE MOVEMENT OF PERSONS AND SERVICES. (I'd paste it but it's fairly lengthy.) Manxmen do not benefit from any of this section.

[joeyconcrete]

they can gain a work permit or satisfy one of the conditions applying to students.

 

Does anybody know what the conditions are? I mean, could I open "concrete's school of life" and begin accepting students from various places.

 

I've never understood how that place in Pt.Erin (and now Douglas) managed to attract so many students to study hospitality from as far afield as Asia, and yet, I've never seen any English or Europeans studying there (or at least, walking round in the branded suits). What does the school actually teach, and is it rated highly in the hospitality industry?