Mec Vannin Make Believe

[Frances]

I would like to add that children were indeed forced to drop their native language by the schools and education system;

they were NOT (and even the imported English school inspector commented on it) - not even Mec Vannin pushes this line any more - there were english petty schools set up under Bishop Wilson from early 18th C with supposedy compulsory attendence (actually better than England) but English would have been needed for any commercial intercourse - Wilson had some religious texts translated into Manx and the subsequent Bishop oversaw the completion of the Bible translation by 1760's - there is much about this on my site - however you will see that Manx was already in decline by looking at the confirmation classes from the early to mid 18th C, several parishes have in their register two lists - Manx and English (ie the language in which they were taught ) - decline in Manx in the 19th C was more of a 'conspiracy' of the Manx to join in with the dominant English culture (jobs, access to wider range of literature etc) and not push the language down to the next generation.

[Skeddan]

decline in Manx in the 19th C was more of a 'conspiracy' of the Manx to join in with the dominant English culture (jobs, access to wider range of literature etc) and not push the language down to the next generation.

 

eeek! Frances where do you get that from?

 

You could also turn it around and say that the decline in Manx from 1765 was a result of cultural domination by the English. You will be familiar with AW Moore's account at http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/iomnhas/lm1p129.htm Manks was being progressively restricted in use for Church services though most people spoke and understood Manks. A cultural domination meant it became necessary to learn English. The example of the Bible translation in 1760 and Moore's account shows how sharp the change may well have been in 1765. As Moore notes in 1825 the extinction of Manks was being predicted within 60 years. Was this because of a conspiracy of the Manks to 'join in', or was it a programme by the English rulers to have the Manks join in and anglicise them - by progressively moving to Church services in English only, by patronage and jobs that dependend on speaking English, and by English cultural domination. I think you put responsibility on the Manks a bit too readily rather than looking at what might have been done to force on them that 'choice' of English as the language needed to get by - indeed for English to become the one and only 'official language' of IoM. I think you suppose the people had more say in this and more choice in the matter than might be realistically assumed.

 

I'd think that being 'forced' to monolingualism may not have been quite so marked until a later phase of assimilation - late 19th and early 20th C, and then not obvious official policy so much as 'institutionalised' (e.g. children being taught solely in English, textbooks and the like only being in English, and perhaps children being punished for speaking in the indigenous language 'for their own good' by teachers who didn't understand what the 'little scamps' might be saying).

 

Could you provide the reference to the school inspector and the date for this. Is this the one from 1908? at:

 

http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/fulltext/hmi.htm

 

 

I have no idea how accurate this is but one can find reports such as:

 

An elderly Manx friend tells me that when she was at school, children were punished if they spoke Manx because it was considered "common"!

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/voices/multilingual/manx.shtml

 

I also don't think the confirmation classes in early 18th C are evidence of Manks being in decline rather than the rise of bilingualism, as may be gathered from Moore. The rise of English monolingualism after 'Revestment' is something else again.

 

I would also suggest that the process was much more insidious - managed by patronage to key positions on school boards, and vetting of other key local appointments. The school inspector's article of 1908 gives some sense of how Whitehall 'sprinkled cold water' on any intiatives. The following passage from the Manx Quarterly of 1914 is perhaps a little bolder and more informative:

 

http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/mquart/mq14134.htm

 

Small, however, as was the measure of independence formerly enjoyed by Mannin, it was apparently too much for the Manx patriots then in power, and in 1872 the Manx Parliament; at the dictation of the Governor, one Loch, passed an act handing over the most important and sacred of its duties. viz., the control of education, to England. By this act the Manx Government proclaimed that it was unequal to the task of devising a system of education for the children whose parents had placed it in power, and that the one fit and proper body to decide what was good for the Manx child was the regiment of English officials located at Whitehall, London, and known as the Board of Education. For such a confession of incompetence and imbecility it, would be hard to find an equal in the records of public bodes. I will deal presently with some of the consequences which have followed this act of national folly.

 

…in 1899 Yn Cheshaght Gailckagh was set on foot. This society corresponds, in its aims if not in its methods, with our Gaelic League, its first object being stated as " The preservation of Manx as the national language of the Isle of Man."

 

The history of this society, reflecting as it does the weakness of the national sense in the Island, makes rather mournful tiding. A good start was, however, made with an attempt to provide for the teaching of Manx in the schools; but here it was that Loch's act came in, and it as the gentlemen at Whitehall who had to be humbly approached by Yn Cheshaght with a view to having the Manx language recognised as a subject of instruction in the public elementary schools of the Island. These capable gentlemen took three years to come to a decision on the matter, and then graciously granted permission to Yn Cheshaght " to lay the question before the school boards of the Island," These three years were, we may presume, spent in ascertaining accurately the sort of stuff the school boards were made of. The result showed England had made no error of judgement: one school board was willing to allow Manx to be taught for one half-hour per week in three of its schools! The permission was shortly afterwards withdrawn !! After this defeat, Yn Cheshaght appears to have given up all hope of reaching the schools, for no mention of them appears in later reports, and today — will it be believed? — the Manx language is not being taught in a single school, primary or secondary, in the Island. The schools have been definitely abandoned to the English inspectors, and in many cases English teachers, are successfully crushing out whatever little national self-respect remains. The ways of these inspectors seem to be somewhat similar to those of many of our anglicised and anglicising inspectors here. A lady teacher who had the temerity to teach Manx children something of the lives of notable Manxmen, was informed by the inspector that "' that sort of thing might easily be overdone," She took the hint.

 

This I think shows that the school and education system forced Manks to be dropped from schools, and certainly suggests that Whitehall had a hand in giving such initiatives a 'sprinkling of cold water' - such 'facilitation of successful leadership' being generally sufficient to ensure the desired outcome by people in positions which depended on a system of patronage which was ultimately controlled by Whitehall.

 

It may have been more subtle (or perhaps less well documented) than the process in Ireland, Wales and Scotland, but the evidence indicates Manks Gaelic was also subject to a similar anglicising process - even if not openly declared as official policy.

[Skeddan]

I would like to add that children were indeed forced to drop their native language by the schools and education system;

they were NOT...

 

 

Gill 1859:

In the schools throughout the Island the Manx has ceased to be taught; and the introduction of the Government system of

education has done much to displace the language.

http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/ma...vol02/intro.htm

 

Kneen 1901:

It is regrettable to have to state that the present system of education which obtains in the Isle of Man, though undoubtedly very good in many respects, tends to Anglicisation, almost everything of a Manx character being excluded from these valuable institutions. Not only is the Manx language debarred from having a place beside Greek, Latin, and other obsolete tongues, but Manx history, geography, and other kindred matters, which ought to be inculcated into the mind of every Manx boy and girl, are almost ignored by the school authorities. The board schools are in very many cases directed by English teachers, the children are brought up amidst pro-English environments, and the spirit of Anglicisation pervades the atmosphere around them on every hand.

http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/fu...901/preface.htm

[Frances]

J J Kneen was one of the early members of the Manx Language soc - I believe he exaggerated the point (there were many English teachers at the start of the Board schools (which only started in 1870's) as Manx born qualified teachers were rare at the time, the schools were however run by a large number of local elected boards not by a central authority and Manx teachers were not rare in later years - T.E.Brown gives a sympathetic voice for the Manx Language in the 1890's but gives the history of its decline in church and some blame for its decline on the leaders in Society - see www.manxnotebook.com/rcm/rcm_teb2.htm - the Wesleyan Methodists produced their Manx Hymnals but the last edition was in the 1840's (and this by then was something of a special edition by the widow of the original printer), Manx services continued but didn't attract the younger folk whereas in Wales the Calvinist Methodists were probably the savour of demotic Welsh. By the late 19th C Manx was for all practical pursposes dead - many such as Jenner who resurrected the Cornish language were of the same opinion.

[triskelion]

That still isn't the same as being forced to abandon 'their native tongue' however. It seems to me that the diminishing of the Manx language was much more a result of the realities of the time in terms of business and trade.

[Skeddan]

Frances it seems a bit lame to just say you believe Kneen exaggerated the point. There is the typical pattern of stigmatisation, assimilation and 'colonial education' that was repeated by England in dozens of colonies (for a brief intro to this, see http://www.english.emory.edu/Bahri/Education.html). To think IoM was somehow an anomaly as you seem to bears no hint of any recognition of the process of colonialisation, domination and subjugation and doesn't recognise the realpolitick of territorial control and conquest. I'm beginning to wonder if you are fantastically naive or such a committed anglophile that your objectivity is coloured to the degree where it is impossible for you to believe anything but that England was beyond reproach. You say you believe what Kneen says is an exaggeration - ignoring the other documents, and instead insist the suppression of Manks was spontaneously willingly adopted in some 'conspiracy' by the populace - Frances are you serious???

 

Now if I get your latest argument, you are suggesting that Manks was already dead by the late 19th C, so this was irrelevant anyway. Manks was not yet dead - there were still speakers. The point being made is perhaps more accurately put as it being on 'Death Row' - with England having passed sentenced, and carrying it through to the final execution in the 20th C.

[Freggyragh]

The common story that I heard from older people was that children were told not to speak Manx at school - and told it was a sign of backwardness. Occassionally school inspectors would turn up who actually wanted to hear the language, but the pupils had been made ashamed of it. They were taught that it was a shameful thing - and I think you may have to be of older Manx stock to fully understand that - I have seen one old lady cry when telling me how she shut her ears to the language when she was young, and was ashamed to hear it used, another quietly recite the one bit of Manx he remembered from his youth - the Lord's Prayer, and I have seen another old man rage that 'it isn't a language - it's gibberish!' The Manx Language can still be a very emotive subject for people - because of what went on in the schools then.

 

I would say the general, systematic and violent persecution of Gaelic and Gaelic speakers in Ireland and Scotland, and the cosequent deaths of the Galloway and East Ulster dialects, were perhaps the biggest factors in the decline of Gaelic here. Whatever you care to believe or imagine happened here, the violence visited on the wider Gaelic community is very well documented. It is difficult to guess how many Manx people spoke Gaelic in the 19th C - but William Kennish, Capt. Quilliam, Capt. Crowe, Archibald Cregeen and almost all the other famous Manx characters of the age were native speakers, whilst T.E. Brown said he was able to translate sermons into Manx and Hall Caine claimed to have understood it as a boy (as I recall). The 1872 education act seems to have been the tipping point, - that, the Anglicization of the civil service, and the urbanization of the island.

 

The revival of Manx is going well though - and whoever did most damage to Manx in the past, it is undeniable that some of the greatest and most tireless workers for the language have been English by birth - including Edwin Goodwin - (a more 'English' name I cannot think of!) who fell in love with the language completely and who's 'First Lessons' grammar book is still essential reading for serious learners. These days there are Manx speakers from all over the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxHhACBu3b8...feature=related

[Frances]

There was no official scheme to outlaw the manks language - the courts continued to use it, church services both Established + Methodist used it but its use declined steadily in all three and can be documented in its use in court, the progressive rise in English church/chapel services, the decline of those able to preach in Manks etc.

 

That many Manx were bilingual pre 1765 is not open to doubt - the need to run confirmation classes in both English and Manks pre 1765 indicates that there were significant monoglots (or those more at home in one of the languages) and the numbers in each class may indicate the strengths of each language in certain parishes - there were several comments that maybe 2/3 of the population spoke Manks around 1800.

 

There were speakers of Manks as you well know into the mid 20th Century - their numbers were small and many who came over to resaerch Manks found it difficult (even with local help) to find more than a few native speakers even from the start of the 20th C (see the quoted figures for 1901/1911 census etc).

 

Now why did this decline come about - Thompson suggests that it was inevitable from as early as the Norse takeover which removed the top-layer of a Manks speaking society, replacing it with those that looked towards Norse, who in turn were briefly replaced by Scots before they too were replaced by the English looking Stanleys (and later the Atholls). It is possible that the Manx 'Optimates' (societal leaders) could have reversed the decline in Manks by providing more leadership, the18thC translation of the Bible etc provided a written corpus that could be used as a basis for teaching Manks and then possibly adding to its literature but little was done along these lines, though the carvals are put forward as an indication of a literary component of the Manks language. There were suggestions that KWC could have played a part in the resusitation of Manks in the 1830s (see Cregeen's intro to his dictionary) but that school, though it educated the next generation of Manx leaders, was indeed English in its outlook (and of course relied for its income from English speaking parents), There was no co-ordinated Education system until possibly the start of the National schools (soon taken over by the Established church who prior to this had the monopoly on licensed teachers in parish schools) though here it was rather its scheme of rote learning that was the basis of the highly vocational education provided for the poor - education continued along denominational lines until the 1870's and the introduction of the Board schools - there was nothing to stop any of these denominational schools from teaching in Manks except that parents wished their children to be educated in a way that would provide a start in life and I presume (given the various refs that many parents themselves did not pass on Manks) that Brown's conjecture that the parents saw command of English as a key component of 'getting on'. The rise of universal literacy provided the basis of a prosperous Manx newspaper business from the 1860's onwards which was entirely in English (run by English speakers though I suspect if they felt there was a market for Manks it would have been met but it is true that Manks was portrayed as language of country yokels) but no doubt this media increased the status of English and further pushed Manks into decline.

 

It is likely that the similar sequence of events can be found whereever a more 'powerful' or 'useful' langauge comes into conflict with another - Welsh survived in areas where Methodism was seen as a stand against the established church and the use of Welsh helped emphasise the difference (it also a larger base of native speakers, had societal leaders who respected the traditions of Welsh literature and also had Welsh language presses) - even though significant parts of the North of the Island were against the established church, had their Methodist chapels with Manks hymnals the tide was against them - probably the link with an English speaking Wesleyan church was the key (the Welsh being strongly independent) - it is noticeable that when a large group emigrated in 1826/7 they took their Manks with them to Ohio.

 

It is possible that change in attitude in the 1870's might have rescued Manks but there was at the time no pressure to do so ( I've seen no published indication that there was) - the Manx language society started in the 1890's but I suggest by that time too late to be anything other than a group of enthusiasts pushing a 'lost cause' - it never achievied popular support and was always short of funds

[staaue]

That still isn't the same as being forced to abandon 'their native tongue' however. It seems to me that the diminishing of the Manx language was much more a result of the realities of the time in terms of business and trade.

Triskelion, is this your unsubstatiated opinion, or can you back this up with evidence.

 

So what was Wadsworth's reasoning for saying the following. Maybe it was because he thought it was in our best interests??????

It is desirable that the use of the Manks language should be discountenanced, and that English schools should be favoured The small foundation at Pele, for instruction in navigation, may be unworthy of particular notice ; and I am inclined to think a seminary in which the high branches of general education should be undertaken, would, if once established, be found peculiarly adapted to accomplish the valuable purposes of such an institution.

 

The following link has to be my all time favorite piece of evidence; which backs up what I said in my last post about parents being forced to teach their children English or they will be fined. What better mode of subjugation!!!!!

http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/ma.../msvol03/p4.htm

 

9. For the promoting of religion, learning, and good manners, all persons shall be obliged to send their children as soon as they are capable of receiving instruction to some petty school, and to continue them there untill the said children can read English distinctly, unless the parents give a just cause to excuse themselves, approved of by the Ordinary in open court; and that such persons who shall neglect sending their children to be so taught shall (upon a presentment made thereof by the minister, church-wardens, or chapter quest) be fined in one shilling a quarter to the use of the schoolmaster, who may refuse to teach those children who do not come constantly to school (unless for such causes as shall be approved of by the minister of the parish), and their parents shall be fined as if they did altogether refuse to send them to schoole.

 

And for the further encouragement of the schoolmasters, they shall respectively receive, over and above the sallarys already allowed them, sixpence quarterly from the parents of every child that shall be taught by them to read English, and ninepence quarterly from such as shall be taught to write; which sums

 

being refused, the Sumner shall be ordered to require punctual) payment within fourteen days, and upon default hereof they are to be comitted till they submitt to law.

 

Notwithstanding where the parents or relations are poor, and not able to pay as afforesaid, and this be certifyed by the minister and churchwardens of the parish or the Ordinary, such children are to be taught gratis.

 

And whereas some of the poorer sort may have just cause, and their necessitys require it, to keep their children at home for severall weeks in the summer and harvest, such persons shall not be lyable to the penaltys afforesaid ; provided they do (and are hereby strictly required to) send such children during such absence from schoole every third Sunday to the parish church at least one hour before evening service, there to be taught by the school-master to prevent losing their learning; and if any schoolmaster shall neglect his duty, and complaint be made and proved, he shall be discharged, and another placed in his stead, at the discretion of the Ordinary: and every rector, vicar, and curate, shall the first week of every quarter visit the petty schoole, and take an account in a book of the improvement of every child, to be produced as often as the Ordinary shall call for it.

 

Skeddan, I'm glad you said it first, as I was just getting to it. I did warn you what she was like... or did I~??? :lol:

I'm beginning to wonder if you are fantastically naive or such a committed anglophile that your objectivity is coloured to the degree where it is impossible for you to believe anything but that England was beyond reproach. You say you believe what Kneen says is an exaggeration - ignoring the other documents, and instead insist the suppression of Manks was spontaneously willingly adopted in some 'conspiracy' by the populace - Frances are you serious???

 

Freggyragh, I agree this was indeed the tipping point, I doubt it was opposed in any way.

The 1872 education act seems to have been the tipping point, - that, the Anglicization of the civil service, and the urbanization of the island.

 

I was listening to Manxradio's 'Time to Remember' the other year, where they had a fella on talking about what school was like. He said students/pupils would be punished for using Manks around the teachers etc.... That's only two generations back...

[Freggyragh]

There was no official scheme to outlaw the manks language - the courts continued to use it, church services both Established + Methodist used it but its use declined steadily in all three and can be documented in its use in court, the progressive rise in English church/chapel services, the decline of those able to preach in Manks etc.

 

 

- The Methodist hymnal of 1846 was in Manx. The dedication to the Albert Tower was bilingual (1870s?), Governor Loch issued his 'wanted' poster for the Subly Cossack incident in Manx in the 1870's, - the evidence suggests that until 1872 Manx was the main language outside Douglas and Castletown. Even n the 1920s Jeff the 'Dalby Spook' spoke Manx, and I could show you a church service sheet printed entirely in Manx from 1928.

 

 

That many Manx were bilingual pre 1765 is not open to doubt - the need to run confirmation classes in both English and Manks pre 1765 indicates that there were significant monoglots (or those more at home in one of the languages) and the numbers in each class may indicate the strengths of each language in certain parishes - there were several comments that maybe 2/3 of the population spoke Manks around 1800.

 

 

- Yet the SPCK reported in 1764 that the majority of Manx people were ignorant of English - hence the need to provide a translation of the Bible. Or were the SPCK operating as a front organisation for the Manx Langauge Society, which of course wasn't formed until 1899?

 

There were speakers of Manks as you well know into the mid 20th Century - their numbers were small and many who came over to resaerch Manks found it difficult (even with local help) to find more than a few native speakers even from the start of the 20th C (see the quoted figures for 1901/1911 census etc).

 

 

- Some of my greatgrandparents included - but by this time a stigma had been attached to the language. Most of those who were recorded were particularly strong characters who didn't care what people thought of their ability to speak Manx - remember that by this time there was a general hostility to the language. There is still some of that around today, don't you know.

There are also going to be speakers of Manx well into the 21st C and beyond. You may find that they will not be that keen on whileing away the hours with oddball researchers either.

 

Now why did this decline come about - Thompson suggests that it was inevitable from as early as the Norse takeover which removed the top-layer of a Manks speaking society, replacing it with those that looked towards Norse, who in turn were briefly replaced by Scots before they too were replaced by the English looking Stanleys (and later the Atholls).

 

 

 

- Yet the recent evidence suggests that the 'Norse' who came here were already speaking Scottish Gaelic. There are a few Norse placenames, and Gaelicized Norse family names - but the evidence of the stones show that Norse fathers gave their sons Gaelic names - not something you would do if it was going to assign them to a lower status. Don't forget that Gaels (including a Kneal / Neil) were part of the first wave of Vikings to settle Iceland. The majorty of Scots were also Gaelic speakers until long after the Stanleys took over - particularly in Galloway, Ayreshire and Argyll. The early dukes of Ath Fodhla (Atholl) must have been, if not native speakers, then certainly fluent in Gaelic - Lord John Muireach (Murray) commanded an army of Gaelic speakers and hid in South Uist (then, as now, a Gaelic speaking island) after Culloden.

 

 

It is possible that the Manx 'Optimates' (societal leaders) could have reversed the decline in Manks by providing more leadership,

 

 

- No - after 1765 all the top civil service jobs were English appointees from London, except the judiciary - but by 1819 a non-Manx speaker was appointed for the first time.

 

the18thC translation of the Bible etc provided a written corpus that could be used as a basis for teaching Manks and then possibly adding to its literature but little was done along these lines, though the carvals are put forward as an indication of a literary component of the Manks language.

 

 

- Gaelic has a rich literature. You seem to suggest the carvals are not a literary component of the Manx Language - would you care to discuss this?

 

There were suggestions that KWC could have played a part in the resusitation of Manks in the 1830s (see Cregeen's intro to his dictionary) but that school, though it educated the next generation of Manx leaders, was indeed English in its outlook (and of course relied for its income from English speaking parents),

 

 

- Yes - I suppose the clue is in the name.

 

There was no co-ordinated Education system until possibly the start of the National schools (soon taken over by the Established church who prior to this had the monopoly on licensed teachers in parish schools) though here it was rather its scheme of rote learning that was the basis of the highly vocational education provided for the poor - education continued along denominational lines until the 1870's and the introduction of the Board schools - there was nothing to stop any of these denominational schools from teaching in Manks except that parents wished their children to be educated in a way that would provide a start in life and I presume (given the various refs that many parents themselves did not pass on Manks) that Brown's conjecture that the parents saw command of English as a key component of 'getting on'.

 

 

- Yet the achievements of William Kennish seem to indicate a high degree of education, including classical Gaelic 'Aisling' style poetry as well as design and mechanics - although I suppose it is possible that he learned this type of thing in the British Navy and in fact grew up without any education of any sort. The parish priests where nearly all natively fluent and literate in Gaelic, as well as English - the Manx Bible claims to be a translation from the original languages (and it is clear in places where it diverges from the English that this is often true) - they must have fantastic scholars for thee farmers sons to have achieved all that in those horrible vocational, rote-learning schools.

 

The rise of universal literacy provided the basis of a prosperous Manx newspaper business from the 1860's onwards which was entirely in English (run by English speakers though I suspect if they felt there was a market for Manks it would have been met but it is true that Manks was portrayed as language of country yokels) but no doubt this media increased the status of English and further pushed Manks into decline.

 

 

- The newspapers were not entirely in English - and I think you know that. Not only were there columns in the Manx Sun, lateron JJ Kneen wrote for Mona's Herald.

 

It is likely that the similar sequence of events can be found whereever a more 'powerful' or 'useful' langauge comes into conflict with another - Welsh survived in areas where Methodism was seen as a stand against the established church and the use of Welsh helped emphasise the difference (it also a larger base of native speakers, had societal leaders who respected the traditions of Welsh literature and also had Welsh language presses) - even though significant parts of the North of the Island were against the established church, had their Methodist chapels with Manks hymnals the tide was against them - probably the link with an English speaking Wesleyan church was the key (the Welsh being strongly independent) - it is noticeable that when a large group emigrated in 1826/7 they took their Manks with them to Ohio.

 

 

- Perhaps the biggest loss of Manx speakers was the First World War.

 

It is possible that change in attitude in the 1870's might have rescued Manks but there was at the time no pressure to do so ( I've seen no published indication that there was) - the Manx language society started in the 1890's but I suggest by that time too late to be anything other than a group of enthusiasts pushing a 'lost cause' - it never achievied popular support and was always short of funds

 

 

- In the early 1900's Manx Language Society had to write to London for permission to teach Manx classes in the schools - they were given no answer for three years, and when the answer finally came they were told that they could, if the headteacher agreed. Only two schools granted permssion - but would not provide any material support. The lessons went ahead, unpaid and unsupported. Manx was taught in this way - on a voluntary basis - until 1992. When the government finally agreed to two full-time Manx teachers the demand was completely overwhelming.

[Frances]

The point I was making was that there was not any official pronouncement that Manks should be killed off (as for example the French did to Breton) - it is certainly the case that many of the English (and also many of the Manx) officials did nothing to encourage it - Busk, as Dolley admits, did much to improve Manx law is one, Wesley can also be found to say the same thing that in his opinion Manx should not be encouraged. There were I agree many educated Manx parsons from the generation that translated the bible through to those who T E Brown writes about in his "Manxiana" - the parochial schools whoever were not generally run by these people(they ran the much smaller 'grammar' schools or took in private pupils) but by the 'lame Cubbons' of the Island, parochial schoolmasters were badly paid and few seemed to stay many years - even Kennish at the time he joined the Navy 'could scarcely speak any English, and was unable either to read or write' (certainly the Parish registers show few who could sign their name) - I claim no expertise in Gaelic poetry so I will leave to others to judge the base from which he drew on for his 'rude verse' and whether it shows any knowledge of earlier verse, I also didn't intend to denean the Carvals, they together with some ballads, fewer hymns and a relatively small amount of verse are about the only literature that originated in Manks.

Yes the SPCK acting on information supplied by the Bishop did say that most spoke Manks - and no doubt in 1764 they were correct, though Hildesley no doubt encouraged them as it was his only supply of money for his project - Hildesley got out his translation fairly quickly once he could see the possibility of printing it. The much earlier translation of the Book of Common Prayer by Philips which Moore claims could have been understood, seems to have been prevented from being printed (c.1610) by a combination of a Lieutenant Governor, who resented the power of the Bishop, combined with support from the Manx Vicar Generals and other parsons who too may have resented a Welshman Philips combining roles of Archdeacon and Bishop (I have a report of the inquiry almost ready to go online but it is in lib scacc)

 

There were no doubt many occasions in which had official support been given Manks may have played a much larger role - by 1835 Cregeen's analogy of an icerberg adrift in a warm sea was I think a good one - there was a lot more Manks invisible than on the surface, but it was seeing attrition from all sides for a wide variety of reasons.

[triskelion]

That still isn't the same as being forced to abandon 'their native tongue' however. It seems to me that the diminishing of the Manx language was much more a result of the realities of the time in terms of business and trade.

Triskelion, is this your unsubstatiated opinion, or can you back this up with evidence.

No, not really. That was just the impression I was getting from the posts of other contributors. Also there was the earlier post claiming that the English tried to enforce the use of English throughout the Empire, which isn't true. What is true is that when trade and administration is dominated by people who only speak English, then it is clearly in your interest to use it. A more contemporary example is how English is the international language despite being only the third most spoken.

I'm not denying there were systematic campaigns, I really don't know enough about it and I am far to busy these days to look into it.

[staaue]

What is true is that when trade and administration is dominated by people who only speak English, then it is clearly in your interest to use it.

That statement goes without saying, if I want to do trade with Germany, then I need to learn some German; likewise for the Germans. What doesn't need to happen, is for a larger nation to actively suppress a smaller nations native language and culture.

 

Triskelion, I'm not personally attacking you, but what you said is characteristic of how the powers that be get away with it.

I really don't know enough about it and I am far to busy these days to look into it.

[Freggyragh]

Frances, as you are not willing to discuss Manx writers in their first language lets look at a sample of William Kennish's 'rude verse' in his second language:

 

Then sleep in peace, my honored ancient race,

Your earthly cares are now for ever fled,

Leaving behind no mark for man to trace,

Your faults or virtues to your lonely bed.

And tho'no sculpture decorates your tomb,

Nature shall dress, at each returning spring,

Your lonely mansion with the heather bloom,

While mountain larks around your shrine shall sing.

And when no more the rays of summer smile,

But winter storms from the bleak north emerge,

And wrap in gloomy vest your native isle,

Te osier reeds shall sigh your funeral dirge.

(from An Elegy of An Ancient Burying Ground) (te is Manx and means 'tis.)

 

Does this seem to you to be the work of someone who had recieved no schooling?

 

You claim no expertise on Gaelic poetry, nevertheless here are a couple of links that illustrate my point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisling

http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~stephen/manxnotes/MN013.pdf

 

"Yes the SPCK acting on information supplied by the Bishop did say that most spoke Manks - and no doubt in 1764 they were correct, though Hildesley no doubt encouraged them as it was his only supply of money for his project..."

 

So Bishop Hildesley and JJ Kneen are not to be trusted - but Jenner is?

 

"The point I was making was that there was not any official pronouncement that Manks should be killed off -"

 

The 1872 act of education?

[Frances]

Staaue - may I suggest you read the chapter on Manx Petty schools in Hinton Bird's "The Island that Led" - the very title came from the fact that if these petty schools had been adequately financed in later generations then the Island would indeed have had a great education system - but they did work for the first period being introduced by Bishop Barrow who Bird gives the credit for laying down the education of the manx clergy and did indeed give the Island a lead in providing elementary education to all. He comments on the choice of English but adds that Barrow had really no choice - there was no written manx texts he could draw upon (the Philips Book of Common Prayer) existed only in manuscript and may well have been forgotten.

 

Thge quote re permissions to use the school is I think taken from an article by a rather strong Irish Nationalist who came over to the Island immediately pre WW1 on a pan-Celtic recruiting drive - he lays into the choice of English inspectors but is totally ignorant on the political compromises made to get the Board schools - the established church and the non-conformists would not trust each other to police the school thus the established English inspectorate was chosen.. The request for use of the schools was nothing to do with London who replied correctly that it was upto the local headmaster Again I suggest looking at Hinton Bird's classic study of the manx School system