Mec Vannin Make Believe

[VinnieK]

Leaving the term 'nationalism' aside, what about self-determination as now accepted as being a fundamental principle of international law - is this a flawed doctrine? What is the objection to that principle (as I asked oldmanxfella, but he didn't reply).

 

Self determination is in and of itself no more questionable as a practical aim than any other, but as a concept it isn't unique to nationalism, nor is self determination reliant upon a homogenous national identity and culture for justification: it could apply to a more or less vague union of different cultures as much as it could a homogenous cultural entity.

 

The suitability of self determination can however be questioned in its usefulness, applicability, and benefit to the people who win it or to which it is granted.

 

 

What about the right of a people to be free from foreign subjugation? Is this an 'ideology' which is objectionable?

 

This is a loaded question, and you know it. Of course all have a right to be free from subjugation, as characterised as complete control and enslavement, by any agency, foreign or otherwise. Again, this is not unique to nationalism, and is as much a component of basic humanitarian thought as it is nationalist doctrines.

 

If no objection to these principles, then the next question is applicability of these principles to IoM.

 

The Isle of Man is not subjugated by the U.K. We elect our representatives to the house of keys, and we have a vast amount of autonomy when it comes to domestic policy. No matter how suggestive the language you use, we are not enslaved or under the complete control of the U.K. Certainly there have been complaints that the Island often parrots UK legislation, but, if true and to the detriment of the Island, that is the fault of the quality of the representatives we elect.

 

Whether or not total independence would bring us many benefits, or is even practical, I'm honestly not sure, and little that has been said so far in the discussion has swayed my opinion one way or another. Though I will say that I very much doubt that it will have a very great effect on national identity or Manx culture. Thanks to the small population of the Island and the limitations that accompany it, the Manx professional classes and a large majority of those who persue higher education will still be educated at universities in the UK or Ireland, UK cultural outlets such as television, radio, literature and news agencies will still largely predominate, and the opportunities that our larger neighbours offer ensures that a significant proportion of the Manx population will spend a meaningful amount of time (and some their entire lives) living and working outside of the Island. In other words, little is likely to change. Similarly, examples set by UK legislation and the execution of policy will probably still exert a powerful influence upon Manx government, and in trade and finance we will, as all states are, be closely bound to our neighbours (especially the larger ones).

[VinnieK]

But some of the modern day nationalism and patriotism I come across from the Manx, English, Welsh, Scottish, etc. just comes across as cringeful to say the least. Whether that is english supporters flying flags on their cars, welsh and less so scottish people ranting on about how great it is to be welsh or scottish.

 

I'm inclined to agree. The reasons against discriminating on the basis of race or nationality are well known and agreed upon, but they apply just as powerfully to the celebration of nationality as an individual's defining feature (or one of their defining features). A person should be judged, for better or worse, on who they are and what they do, not on where they come from or what wonderful characteristics they're automatically supposed to enjoy given their heritage.

 

I have to say that I don't feel pride in being Manx. This might appear a contentious statement in the eyes of some, but the absence of pride is not shame, and doesn't imply a dislike or a contempt for either the place of my birth or its people - Manx is simply what I am, not who I am, and I have no more right to be proud of that, or to imagine it reflects favourably upon me, than I have the deeds of my neighbour or even of an ancestor (I may admire both, or be impressed, but surely not proud).

[La_Dolce_Vita]

But some of the modern day nationalism and patriotism I come across from the Manx, English, Welsh, Scottish, etc. just comes across as cringeful to say the least. Whether that is english supporters flying flags on their cars, welsh and less so scottish people ranting on about how great it is to be welsh or scottish.

 

I'm inclined to agree. The reasons against discriminating on the basis of race or nationality are well known and agreed upon, but they apply just as powerfully to the celebration of nationality as an individual's defining feature (or one of their defining features). A person should be judged, for better or worse, on who they are and what they do, not on where they come from or what wonderful characteristics they're automatically supposed to enjoy given their heritage.

 

I have to say that I don't feel pride in being Manx. This might appear a contentious statement in the eyes of some, but the absence of pride is not shame, and doesn't imply a dislike or a contempt for either the place of my birth or its people - Manx is simply what I am, not who I am, and I have no more right to be proud of that, or to imagine it reflects favourably upon me, than I have the deeds of my neighbour or even of an ancestor (I may admire both, or be impressed, but surely not proud).

 

I used to feel pride when I was in my teens but for no other reason than because I was Manx and felt that it should be proud. I suppose because I, like everyone is, was forcefed ideas that you should be proud to be British or Manx without questioning why. There are lots of goods things about the Isle of Man and certainly lots of bad but you can't treat patriotism rationally by weighing up the positives and negatives.

[staaue]

I don't feel pride for being Manks, infact I'm a little ashamed of the way the gov't treats the poorer aspects of our society; I have much in the form of proof - most resent was a friend of mine informs me they are moving away because the needs of their child just isn't being catered for here. They have to leave their homeland which I find really sad; people just aren't important anymore.

 

I love our history and admire what we've been through. I just get a strong sense that we are a dieing breed that will soon be forgotten unless we do something about it. When I look at a cause for this, I find the English at the beginning and end of it. Maybe the Manks have some responsibility to play in this, but we can't take the Manks out of the equation to fix the situation, but we sure as hell can try to remove the other.

 

 

Frances.

 

The Manks called things by what they resembled - as I'm sure you're aware. In Manks, 'Baare' means the top, tip or end of something. 'Dool' means Dark or gloomy (of weather)

 

I find this a better translation of pronunciation and meaning. Especially if spoken in a gutteral manner.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I love our history and admire what we've been through. I just get a strong sense that we are a dieing breed that will soon be forgotten unless we do something about it. When I look at a cause for this, I find the English at the beginning and end of it. Maybe the Manks have some responsibility to play in this, but we can't take the Manks out of the equation to fix the situation, but we sure as hell can try to remove the other.

 

In what sense though are the Manx a dieing breed? There are always going to be Manx people. Though the Manx people of tomorrow won't be the same as those of today. And the Manx people and culture that you understand of today would not be the same as that of even 100 years ago.

Certainly the links with England have led to a dominance of English leading to the extinction of Manx Gaelic and old superstitions, traditions and customs have died out. It is sad that we cannot access that world to see what it was like but it isn't coming back and you can't make it come back. Teaching kids Manx in school won't make them more Manx but I think it is worthwhile to preserve this cultural aspects.

 

I don't think it is completely barmy to talk about stemming the influences of the English to prevent the death of the Manx "breed". In culture, traditions, accent, etc., the Manx of today are, as I mentioned, almost indistinguishable from the English. It is simply where we were born that differentiates us. And then what of the other influences that could be said to have had deleterious effects on the Manx breed? What of the effects of urbanisation in Douglas, consumerism, the finance sector, American culture, etc. What of the many non-Manx on the Island already and their influence.

You can't shut the Island off from the rest of the world, even if anyone wanted to.

 

admire what we've been through

 

Do you mean recently and within your lifetime?

[Frances]

staaue

Ain't I allowed a little levity and to give the pip to the herring? - like the Druidic seminary for young Celtic princes a mis-reading!.

 

There is an interesting series of letters written by T.E. Brown on 'Manx Character' that were reprinted in Ramsey Church Magazine c. 1897- I've put the first of these on line, the remaining 4 should be on-line later this evening - many aspects are somewhat embarassing to a modern taste but one can see where Brown's reputation for mocking the Manx came from.

[Freggyragh]

Frances - if the Gaelic expression was 'clearing out' then this is certainly not 'destroying' - it is 'arranging / organizing / sorting out / preparing for settlement / etc.' - reaghey magh in Manx.

[Skeddan]

If I remember right Boethius didn't say it was a druidic seminary for young celtic princes. I think he said i) IoM had been the principal seat of the Druids (which others have also said) ii) that this was the principal seat of the muses, iii) princes were educated here - I think the specifics he gives are contemporary to him - and these had a christian education rather than druidic (Celtic Church / druid similarites & links aside). I'm not sure if it is a mistake in the translation or by him, but from what I gather (without this being a key topic for me) Boethius perhaps confuses the person who was educated with the 'bishop' he names as being responsible for their education (the bishop named here is also name of a Scottish king who was one of his contemporaries and who he may well have had contact with given his position). It is a curiously specific statement by him (why not pick somewhere more credible and be more hazy if he is spinning a yarn) and more so because of the specific identification which ties with a king who was one of his contemporaries (and whose name - if I recall - may perhaps have the same etymology as the 'Cormac' who was given the silver apple branch by Manannan). To name a contemporary is obviously going to be in danger of exposing his statement as fabrication. Remember Boethius was pretty well connected and well educated for his time (at least in terms of knowing Euclid, Ptolomy, Aristotle etc.) I don't think specific factual statements by him can all be 'neglected' because you don't accept what he says.

 

I'm not sure there is any 'mis-reading' of anything by Boethius or anyone else apart from perhaps you - if, as you posit, he simply invented this, how can this be a misreading by him? You may have evidence it wasn't so (e.g. no findings of any building that might be the early equivalent of a big English public school - assuming a young prince was educated in such manner). I don't think Boethius said anything about a 'seminary' - I'd rather imagine the education would be in a cottage and begin by scrubbing floors, washing clothes and carrying water - and not in any grand surroundings or special building - but that's just my idle fancy and you may fancy something different, but if so, be careful not to suppose Boethius said something he might not have, nor to engage simply in demolishing your own fancy.

 

 

As for 'land of apples' - if you want to fancy this was meant literally, you can.

 

BTW - re North Barrule - I may have risen to the levity of this bit of peak, but I could see far enough to see this was a fishy tale of no account (just in case that might have been lost on you). It does however seem to offer a nice example of how many 19th Century scholars read into things what they fancied with nothing more than 'one might well imagine' in a most 'charming' manner without really knowing much at all - which others then run with without due caution.

 

(I wonder what would be made of it if Arthurian legend had described an island as the land of sour grapes? )

[VinnieK]

I just get a strong sense that we are a dieing breed that will soon be forgotten unless we do something about it. When I look at a cause for this, I find the English at the beginning and end of it. Maybe the Manks have some responsibility to play in this, but we can't take the Manks out of the equation to fix the situation, but we sure as hell can try to remove the other.

 

And what happens when we've got ridden of the English? Jam uk television and radio broadcasts? Restrict the internet to an entirely local network? The problem isn't the English, it's our relative sizes and proximity to the rest of the British Isles. The culture of a large nation invariably influences that of its smaller neighbours through mechanisms such as trade, travel, education, and cultural agents such as newspapers. When that smaller neighbour is as small as the Isle of Man in terms of population this process is particularly rapid, especially today where travel is relatively cheap and easy compared with earlier times and media is global in scope.

 

Also, why is it that we are supposed to loathe the English, but celebrate the Irish, Scots, and Scandinavian influence upon the Island? Which incarnation of Manx culture are we supposed to be resurrecting here, that of the Viking domination of the Island? or before then? And what makes one better than the other and why?

[Freggyragh]

O Rahilly's bias against Manx seems to be based on:

 

a) the spelling system, which obscures the etymology, but makes it much easier to learn than Irish.

 

b) Use of English idiom. There are lots of examples of Manx written in English idiom, but the charge that Manx is just English with Gaelic vocabulary is ridiculous - in many ways standard Manx is more conservative in its idiom than other modern dialects of Gaelic. Manx is closer to Ulster and Scottish Gaelic than to his native Kerry Gaelic - The Northern dialects have more Scandinavian style use of auxilliary verbs, and, not surprisingly this is particularly strong in Manx. Manx came in for the most criticism because it is furthest from his own dialect.

 

c) He was convinced that when all a language's speakers become bilingual a language must die. I wonder what would he make of modern Welsh? He was, of course, bilingual himself - just writing at a peculiar time in history when academics thought bilingualism should be for them alone, and everyone else should learn only one language - that's 1940's Europe for you.

 

O' Rahilly would probably have disagreed, but I would say that the English have been good neighbours to the Manx for most of their history. I am probably typical of Manx people - there are many, many things I love about England - I love the tolerance, eclectisism, spirit of adventure, freedom and curiosity that created an empire but hate the boorish racial-imperialism and mono-culturalism that ended it.

 

The Manx attitude in the 18th C was mixed. I think, looking at what befell the Gaels in Scotand and Ireland, that there was little choice.

[Freggyragh]

For an interesting aside, possibly Bran connected, concerning Manx apples and a man in boat:

http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/fu...sm1911/p071.htm

Gob ny Ooyl - 'Apple Point'

[localyokel]

I would say that the English have been good neighbours to the Manx for most of their history. I am probably typical of Manx people - there are many, many things I love about England - I love the tolerance, eclectisism, spirit of adventure, freedom and curiosity that created an empire but hate the boorish racial-imperialism and mono-culturalism that ended it.

 

I would say at this stage that even most of the English hate what England has become. This is not such a big statement to make at the end of the day. Most of the key elements that made Britain what is was historically have gone. At the same time its great to see how devolution has helped the Scots and the Welsh maintain a better national identity, and its nice to see the efforts that have been made over here to try to re-invigorate the language and cultural side. Its probably not enough but with us Manxies in the certain minority what can we expect (well over 50% of the kids in schooling here must be from UK parents so they are not going to be interested).

 

The only national identity Britain has left seems to be portrayed by the tattoed taxi driver who sticks flags of St George in the window of his council house, and hates anyone who does not have a white face. UK culture has become about consumerism, aggression, lager, and intolerance. If this is what British "culture" has been reduced to then I'm all for breaking away as the culture in the Celtic nations seems to have not have yet become cartoon parody of itself.

 

We have to work carefuilly to avoid what has brought Britain down from happening here. We've already had the BNP try to canvass here and I think on balance the IOM is a good cultural melting pot (as it always has been back through history) but if we let the new British influences take over too much were going to be left with very little of worth.

[Freggyragh]

I'm right with you on your last post LocalYokel -

 

Vinnie - your increasingly bizarre rants are getting past the point where it is worth responding. The models for independence are not North Korea or Bhutan - Choose from The Republic of Ireland, Monaco, Lichentstein, or Norway. Of course, we will still be run by the same money - but we may avoid becoming Duchy Originals like the poor bloody Cornish.

[VinnieK]

The only national identity Britain has left seems to be portrayed by the tattoed taxi driver who stick flags of St George in the window of his council house, and hates anyone who does not have a white face. UK culture is about consumerism, aggression, lager, and intolerance. If this is what British "culture" has been reduced to then I'm all for breaking away as the culture in the Celtic nations seems to have not have yet become cartoon parody of itself.

 

I disagree. The English have their own fairly distinct character and quirks both on a national and a regional level beyond your characterisation. Part of the reason we don't notice them is because they're taken entirely for granted because we don't see them next to contrasting cultures that highlight them, but I've met plenty of people from other countries who are resident here that can talk at length about the British or English character as distinct from their own, and not in the entirely negative tones you adopt.

 

We have to work carefuilly to avoid what has brought Britain down from happening here. we've already had the BNP try to canvass here and I think on balance the IOM is a good cultural melting pot (as it always has been back through history)

 

I can remember plenty of racism on the Island when I was young. There were the slurs and distasteful jokes whispered behind the back of the one black girl at my school, and ocassionally said out loud to her face, as well as the racist jokes and comments down the pub or at work. It may be tempting to blame "comeovers" and their offspring for these attitudes (itself a racist generalization), but plenty of those I remember as having racist views or enjoying its humour had venerably old Manx surnames. By no means was racism a predominant feature, but it was, and in all likelihood still is, there, just as it is in the UK. Also, you seem to have a rather rose tinted view of our celtic neighbours: Both Scotland and Ireland have been heavily criticised both recently and in years past for having serious problems with racism and often a refusal to face up to them.

[VinnieK]

I'm right with you on your last post LocalYokel -

 

Vinnie - your increasingly bizarre rants are getting past the point where it is worth responding. The models for independence are not North Korea or Bhutan - Choose from The Republic of Ireland, Monaco, Lichentstein, or Norway. Of course, we will still be run by the same money - but we may avoid becoming Duchy Originals like the poor bloody Cornish.

 

If my "rants" appear bizarre, then it is because you are too stupid to understand them, or their context. My comments on blocking tv signals from the UK were not suggesting that the only option for independence was North Korean isolationism, but were in response to Staaue's opinion that Manx culture can be saved by eliminating the English from the equation - I was merely pointing out that the actual physical presence of the English or the political relationship between the Island and the UK are only two (and possibly not even the most powerful) influences of UK culture on the Island, and that any attempts to "eliminate" English influence in an effort to protect Manx culture would be impractical as it would ultimately run up against agencies of cultural transmission and influence such as the media, the internet, and so forth.

 

This much was obvious both from what I wrote and from its context as a reply to Stauue, and so in representing my comments as denying any model of independence other than the totalitarian you're either an idiot, a liar, or both. Which is it?