Mec Vannin Make Believe

[Frances]

as herring usually dive during the day only surfacing at night maybe Skeddan could give a reference to the actual presence of oil + gas in Manx waters - there is an excellent discussion + history of exploration p373 et seq of vol 1 of New history (pub 2006) which gives a good technical reason as to why the gas exists and why the geology would prevent it from being there in Manx waters - there were several exploratory wells which found nothing (I recall a presentation at Manx Museum which also came to the same conclusion) - as the gas field is at a depth of 3600-3900 feet which is above the depth of several of the Manx mines none of which ever struck oil/gas then I suspect there is no field. However I'm not a geologist but may be Skeddan could quote his credentials to explain why ELF, British gas et al are wrong - if gas/oil existed in the Irish EEZ would that not have been developed by a nation that has no natural fuel resource

[VinnieK]

I think similies and analogies are sometimes useful – at least I find them so, since they can bring a fresh understanding to a problem (as Wittgenstein observed). Using such an illustration really was not meant to be in any way condescending....

 

I never thought I'd ever meet someone more pompous than I. I feel all warm and good about myself now.

 

P.S. Wittgenstein observed no such thing. He regularly used similies and analogies, but his attitude towads them was that they are dangerous tools to work with that open the way to misunderstanding and "pseudo-questions" by covering fundamental differences with a broad generality.

 

P.P.S. the entire papragraph quoted is the very essence of condescending.

 

Hugs.

[Skeddan]

Frances, when you say 'Manx waters', I take it you mean Manx territorial waters - the 12 nautical mile limit. I cannot give any reference to the actual presence of oil and gas in Manx territorial waters - and have not ever suggested there is. If so, you are just attacking an argument which is only of your own making.

 

What is very well established is that there are very significant oil and gas reserves in the Irish Sea. The issue is whether such reserves might fall within what would be a Manx EEZ which extends further than the territorial waters (see earlier posts as to the difference between an EEZ and territorial waters). As I noted, it looks to me that "Millom" and perhaps some of the well-heads here fall within what would be a Manx EEZ. I have given references in previous posts in this thread, and Albert Tatlock has also posted a link to relevant documents. What could be usefully done is checking what part of Millom lies closer to IoM coastline than the UK coastline - I may be wrong in my assessment of this as I don't have the instruments needed to check this properly.

 

If it was a fact there is no gas or oil in the Irish EEZ it does not mean there is none in the Irish Sea and none in what would be a Manx EEZ - see the Millom field as such a possibility. Your inductive argument is simply not valid.

 

There is also the issue of economically viable extraction. With escalating fuel prices 'non-economic' fields which were not considered suitable for exploitation are now being reconsidered (much like Cornish tin mines and some gold mines). Just because it wasn't exploited 10 or 20 years ago doesn't mean it is not a valuable resource.

 

You might also consider that there is considerable revenue obtained just from licenses for exploration with options etc. which can be worth millions just on the possibility that there might be oil, gas or valuable condensates. The government issuing the licenses benefits even if nothing is found. Oh - that's right - that exploration has already been done. I wonder who got paid for the licenses...

[Frances]

there are significant gas fields in the eastern Irish sea - the geology depends heavily on a certain type of overlying impermeable barrier to stop the escape of the gas/oil derived by the 'cooking' of the organic rich holywell shale - this layer is bounded by fault lines - Man lies to the wrong side of the fault judging from the map in Vol 1 of New History - The map quoted earlier should allow you a better judgement of the 'EEZ' as basically it is a line midway between the enclosing polygon of the different countries (bays are not counted as they fall between lines drawn from headlands - all of morcambe bay being uncovered at low tide is part of England.

 

However you have neither given your credentials for making the claim nor to any reference backing up your claim

 

added - as the New History states that the manx government released ELF from its commitment to explore further on I presume the combined failure of the exploratory drills and the elucidation of the geology I guess it was man who got the money

 

There would appear to be method in your posts - get others to do the research work for you - as yet you have given no refs to any of your claims

[Skeddan]

I never thought I'd ever meet someone more pompous than I. I feel all warm and good about myself now.

 

P.S. Wittgenstein observed no such thing. He regularly used similies and analogies, but his attitude towads them was that they are dangerous tools to work with that open the way to misunderstanding and "pseudo-questions" by covering fundamental differences with a broad generality.

 

See 'Culture and Value' - about page 3 or 5. You may have missed it if you're going by the Peter Winch translation - you'll find it given with a typo: "A good smile refreshes the intellect." I kind of like that one too.

 

As you know he also talked about 'being in the grip of a picture' and the like, and this is why a similie or analogy can be useful.

 

"Who is the most condascending one of all". Is that all that occupies your interest? - well, it's not easy to treat someone who has been scornful and condascending to you with respect and courtesy and to not seem insincere in an email or post - and if it comes across as condascending to you, oh fairest one, then tough. You're not interested in this, or, it seems, anything much apart from yourself - as you said - you are quite content and complacent, so are basically an apathetic self-satisfied lardarse - so your couch-potato view and snide remarks to bolster your self-esteem which make you feel all "warm and good" about yourself, and which reflects your own condescending attitude cuts no ice with me. Thanks for sharing with us, but no thanks. He may be prickly and suspicious, but I have respect for oldmanxfella, and none for you. That, by the way, is not condascension, it's contempt.

[Frances]

3.323;3.324

[VinnieK]

See 'Culture and Value' - about page 3 or 5. You may have missed it if you're going by the Peter Winch translation - you'll find it given with a typo: "A good smile refreshes the intellect." I kind of like that one too.

 

See deeper into the Philosophical Investigations than the first ten pages and you should see similes addressed critically. Also you're confusing "refreshing the intellect" with "providing new understanding", neither of which are analogous or Wittgenstein's intended portrayal of similes.

 

"Who is the most condascending one of all". Is that all that occupies your interest? - well, it's not easy to treat someone who has been scornful and condascending to you with respect and courtesy and to not seem insincere in an email or post - and if it comes across as condascending to you, oh fairest one, then tough.

 

Just correcting you, m'dear. You claimed not to be condescending and you were wrong, you tried to cloak your statements and reasoning with a thin layer of unimpeachability by a preposterous invocation of ill read, out of context, Wittgenstein, and in this you were once again wrong, or at the very best clumsy.

 

You're not interested in this, or, it seems, anything much apart from yourself - as you said - you are quite content and complacent, so are basically an apathetic self-satisfied lardarse - so your couch-potato view and snide remarks to bolster your self-esteem which make you feel all "warm and good" about yourself, and which reflects your own condescending attitude cuts no ice with me.

 

I'm shocked and hurt! As it happens I'm fairly trim, but that's by-the-by. As a matter of fact I am very interested in the constitutional status of the Island and questions regarding its relationship to the U.K, I merely suspect that there are more fundamental, and interesting, issues at hand than your petty and, as has been pointed out by others, largely unsubstantiated bickering regarding EEZ's, rabid accusations of economic piracy on the part of our mighty and handsome imperial overlords, and largely inane points regarding the legitimacy of the monarchy's position. Nevertheless, you crack on, I'm sure that your efforts towards furthering the independence of the once proud Manx will no doubt be remembered as a sincere and genuine appeal to the greater good, rather than an attempt to "bolster your self-esteem" with poorly thought out 'william wallace with a briefcase' pretentions.

[oldmanxfella]

Can someone remind me what the purpose of this thread is?

 

How pompous does one have to be to quote Wittgenstein in a thread about sea and fishing rights?

 

I think most people are starting to smell a rotting skeddan here.

[Freggyragh]

Skeddan is asking important questions, and has researched the topic.

If you have a genuine interest have a look at the map at the link below:

 

http://www.offshore-technology.com/projects/rivers/

 

You will see that Millom is closer to England than to us, but there isn't much in it. It does seem feasible that a rig could tap into the field from our side of a hypothetical EEZ - but there are a host of different reasons why there isn't a rig any closer to us - including not just political, but economic, environmental, geological and meterological. I doubt anyone can answer all of these. Can we just stick to the political?

 

By the way, Vinnie K, are you normal for Norfolk?

[oldmanxfella]

Skeddan is asking important questions, and has researched the topic.

 

Back in wind up mode I see

[VinnieK]

Skeddan is asking important questions, and has researched the topic.

 

Are they though? It seems that this thread was started with questions regarding Mec Vannin's apparently counterproductive manipulations of the Illiam Dhone story, but now focuses entirely on what appears to be Skeddan's pet peeve: the question of a proposed Manx EEZ, a topic which those arguing against him have done more to demonstrate their research and justify their conclusions (which takes a little bit more than pointing at a map and saying "Ah, well, I suppose they could be up to something shifty out there, like").

 

By the way, Vinnie K, are you normal for Norfolk?

 

Nah, but I am for the Isle of Man, which is probably even worse.

[Freggyragh]

Well Vinnie K, now you've shown your true colours.

[VinnieK]

Well Vinnie K, now you've shown your true colours.

 

... and they are? Don't tell me another one of my masterful conspiracies has once again been thwarted

[Skeddan]

a proposed Manx EEZ, a topic which those arguing against him have done more to demonstrate their research and justify their conclusions

 

VinnieK, just as I thought you might be able to enter into dialogue I get your pronouncement as the self-appointed umpire - only you forget to consider where the onus of proof should lie...

 

Frances - Yes, bays are not counted, but even so, it looks to me very much like at least part of Millom is on the Manx side of the midway line - judging from the various DTI charts etc. Your judgement is based on looking at a map in Vol 1 of New History, and - as I understand it, looking where the fault lies. I'd think the first approach is a bit more sound since it goes by actual surveyed fields. I admit I haven't done a detailed and in depth study of this.

 

You seem very sure that there would be no value in having an EEZ, how so? Is Vol 1 of New History the basis for a decision to not claim an EEZ? I'm not asking others to do the research, after all one would imagine there has already been a thorough and detailed official report published on the subject which is readily available. There is isn't there? Surely if this is the case you have better references than Vol 1 or anything that you might expect me to provide. No? Oh, why’s that? Maybe its SO obvious that proper study into this by the IoM Administration is not necessary – Vol 1 of New History provides all that is needed to be able to arrive at an informed policy decision on the issue.

 

Maybe this is a red-herring - maybe the reason there hasn't been a Manx EEZ established is not to do with whether or not there is oil and gas (after all Ireland has an EEZ as you correctly observe, but no oil or gas). Maybe there is another reason - like possibly IoM's special constitutional relationship with the UK means it isn't entitled to have an EEZ, at least according to those who invented the term. Well there isn't much clarity on what a Crown Dependency is. The Kilbrandon Report certainly didn't address this question.

 

I’m sure they’ll be people here who will be quite certain they have all the answers – but this is based only on uninformed opinion, isn’t it? Can anyone say for sure why there is no EEZ? Your speculations are no more well grounded and well informed than the ones I’ve put forward. What have we got so far - oh yes, Vol 1 of New History, Tax Research’s £300m/£270m/£233m a year subsidy from the UK, piss-poor understanding of some of the basic historical facts, rumour, speculation, and your own opinions. It’s no better than the Mec Vennin make believe. There’s an old adage that you can’t manage what you don’t measure. You don’t have a clue about the nature or workings of the relationship with the UK except your own surmises.

 

What has this got to do with how the thread started. Simple – it’s about starting to ask questions – even if only pointing at a map and saying "Ah, well, I suppose they could be up to something shifty out there, like". That’s how governments are held accountable, and the onus is on them to give the answers. Frankly if a minister held up Vol 1 as a reply to a question about the EEZ, I’d think they’d never live it down – but maybe there is a different standard of political debate over there (as it would seem). You seem very good at protesting how an outsider without credentials or relevant qualifications who is admittedly ill-informed is failing to provide you with information about Manx affairs, but not very bothered that this is not forthcoming from where it should be coming from. Whatever you chose to believe, at the moment you really don’t know if half your economy is coming or going, and no one seems to have a clue about the nature of the constitutional relationship with the UK and what exactly this means. Those are pretty big and basic ‘national’ issues for IoM. The original point I was raising was isn’t it about time those were dealt with properly and soundly rather than having political opinions based simply on surmises, say so and make believe.

 

BTW, this doesn’t imply bashing the financial sector, a break from the UK, manning the barricades, becoming a socialist or Republican, or reactionary conservative, being pro-EU or anti-EU, or anything other than just being properly informed.

 

In the end its not about judging me and the conclusions I have put forward. It's about judging whether you think you really have what is needed to make informed political judgements to draw your own conclusions.

[VinnieK]

Skeddan, despite your focus on the question of the EEZ, the main point of your argument has been that the Manx are subjugated and made fools of by a foreign power who control us via a "Quisling government". The fact of the matter is that this is largely balderdash. If the Manx are under the yoke of quislings in the pay of the dread anglo saxon, they do so through their own free will thanks to democratic elections. Now you may rant and rave to your heart's content that they only do so due to being duped, ignorant, or misinformed, but the fact remains that the Manx electorate still has the power to decide its own future and that it's immensly unlikely that the "military occupation" would react with forcible oppression or some other form of compulsion should the Manx decide to go it alone.

 

In an effort to justify your sense of indignation on behalf of the Manx you have suggested that the economic relationship with the UK is imbalanced and equivalent to plunder, but so far you've only offered the EEZ as an example of this, and even then your example has been questioned with more justification offered (regardless of your scoffing at its nature) than you have provided. It's your claim that the EEZ will bring us millions, and your claim that the UK is plundering our resources and pocketing our money, so the onus of proof is actually entirely on you. All in all it's a bit rich for you to complain about complacency and uninformed compliance on the Island when you've actually done little to counter this other than to offer unsubstantiated claims and statements - in other words you have provided very little information of any genuine substance.

 

You may, somewhat disingenuously, claim the hallowed role of agent provocateur who incites people to think about these matters, but until you provide sufficient evidence or justification for your assertions you are more the compulsive cynic, barking at everything but saying little.

 

In the end its not about judging me and the conclusions I have put forward.

 

Of course it is, that is the essence of debate, and from debate (at least in theory) comes enlightenment. Ironically, it is your own behaviour that is hindering any progress on the issue at hand. Were you to answer the points raised against you with some kind of hard analysis then those disagreeing with you would have to delve deeper into the subject in order to counter it, and so on and so forth, steadily building up a useful body of information from both perspectives that stands to benefit those who read on with interest. What has happened, however, is that you've made some pretty ropey statements, others have countered them, and, instead of meeting their arguments head on, you've adopted the cheap and easy tactic of questioning the rigour and validity of their arguments without substantially addressing them or providing anything to bolster the strength of your own assertions - in effect establishing a nice little impassé from which you can merrily proclaim a stalemate and pour scorn on all for not asking more of those in power.