Mec Vannin Make Believe

[Frances]

The harmony of society in Douglas is sometimes marred by mutual prejudices. In many of the natives, a show of politeness and hospitality, there is a secret aversion to strangers: and in several of the English an unreasonable contempt of the Manks. The one is deemed too shrewd and selfish; and the other too prodigal.

David Robertson A Tour through the Island 1794

[VinnieK]

Because you seem to have some rather strong views on Manks issues, when all the evidence - that I can see - is that you're English.

 

It might be something you should clear up mate; the reasoning for this is so we know how to better understand where you're coming from!!!!

 

Born on the Island, to Manx parents. Lived there for twenty years, and still return each year.

[Freggyragh]

Frances - I think it may be in the BBC publication 'Rìoghachd nan Eilean'. It is not, as I remember it, a vague quote about 'the education of princes'.

[staaue]

That's quite true, actually. All these years I was kidding myself that I was living in England because it offered the opportunites I wanted to persue, but now I realise it's just because I've been made an outcast in my own home by my education Now I finally realise that knowing the intricacies of Manx history and being able to have merry chit chats in Manx about how magnificent being Manx is would more than compensate for not being able to do what I want to do in life.

 

I'm being sincere when I ask if this is sarcasm?

[VinnieK]

That's quite true, actually. All these years I was kidding myself that I was living in England because it offered the opportunites I wanted to persue, but now I realise it's just because I've been made an outcast in my own home by my education Now I finally realise that knowing the intricacies of Manx history and being able to have merry chit chats in Manx about how magnificent being Manx is would more than compensate for not being able to do what I want to do in life.

 

I'm being sincere when I ask if this is sarcasm?

 

Yes it is.

[staaue]

That's quite true, actually. All these years I was kidding myself that I was living in England because it offered the opportunites I wanted to persue, but now I realise it's just because I've been made an outcast in my own home by my education Now I finally realise that knowing the intricacies of Manx history and being able to have merry chit chats in Manx about how magnificent being Manx is would more than compensate for not being able to do what I want to do in life.

 

I'm being sincere when I ask if this is sarcasm?

 

Yes it is.

 

So you're mocking people's want or need to debate and talk about Manks issues; don't get me wrong, you're entitled to say what you want, but what's your angle?

 

I mean, if you hate or dislike nationalism; can you tell us why?

[Frances]

Frances - I think it may be in the BBC publication 'Rìoghachd nan Eilean'. It is not, as I remember it, a vague quote about 'the education of princes'.

 

well the earliest ref I can find goes back to Boethius (note Hector 16th C - He published a history of Scotland in Latin, an immense collection of fact and fiction, which included the tales of Macbeth, a record which eventually passed into Shakespeare's play.) - and to be honest his early history is pure fable - where do you think they were educated ? I know Manx achaeology has been described (incorrectly given the wealth of new material on Neolithic (and other) sites) by Dr F.J. Tritsch, founder of Birmingham University's Department of Ancient History and Archaeology, in his comments that 'all British archaeology was no more than three bricks in a wet field' and that 'when it came to the Isle of Man you had just the wet field'.

 

There is a comment in the introduction to my 1961 edition of Adomnan's Life of Columba that refers to Baitan Cairell's son cleraing out (ie destroying) Man in 581/2 but he has little else to say about Man (and even that identification is questionable as the original identification was by O'Rahilly (he of the Irish Dialects with the 'nice' comments on manx with which I assume you are familiar)) but this has been questioned by later authorities. Thus this mythical seminary for Princes was not noted by Adomnan and I suggest lies in Boethius imagination and confusion of the two Monas as Anglesey was referred to as the home of the Druids.

 

added a bit of Googling found this 'classic' of historical rubbish - http://www.generation13.net/Manxfolio/Mtim...ne-celtic4.html

[Skeddan]

...the Isle of Man was the land of apples of Arthurian legend (written by some american teacher of English Literature who had obviously never seen the Irish sea or the Island

 

Frances, might I suggest that just perhaps you may be being a teenie little bit over-literal if you think a land of apples should be covered in orchards, just as though a land flowing with milk and honey should be full of cows and bees. (Perhaps God hadn’t seen Palestine when he promised this, or the Jews just got tired of wandering around trying to find the place).

 

Freggyragh, I imagine you might have references to the connection between apples / apple trees / silver apple branch and wisdom - in Gaelic poetry rather than just in the Old Testament, Greek mythology and Norse mythology - and also to Manannan and the silver apple branch with golden apples given to Cormac the wise, the Craobh Ciuil etc.

 

Anyway, I’m not so sure that one can confidently conclude that a desciption of a land of apples in a poetic legend in bardagh tradition should be taken as a literal straightforward factual description (But I wouldn’t argue the point with anyone who wants to insist otherwise or wants to hunt for orchard-filled islands ).

[Frances]

Oh I don't know - maybe you would like to incorporate Johnson in his 1850 guide talking of North Barrule:

The proper name of this hill, and of that at the southwestern extremity of the chain, is Baare-ool, signifying " the top of the apple," to which the mountain bears some resemblance.

[Skeddan]

Is that the place you can see 4 kingdoms from - as in the story of Melusine? (or was it 5 kingdoms inc IoM)?

[VinnieK]

So you're mocking people's want or need to debate and talk about Manks issues; don't get me wrong, you're entitled to say what you want, but what's your angle?

 

No, I was mocking Freggyargh's strange suggestion that the reason I live in England is due to being more familiar with English culture than Manx:

 

"learnt bugger all about his own people's history, language and culture, because it wasn't on the curriculum... though I bet he could add something to a debate about English history, language and culture, and as a result, he lives in England",

 

I mean, if you hate or dislike nationalism; can you tell us why?

 

I've already hinted and briefly gone into some aspects of my dislike for nationalism elsewhere in this thread, but in summary I believe it's a flawed doctrine for a number of reasons:

 

Nationalism, like all ideologies is based on a set of arbitrary assumptions (such as that national identity is the preeminent concern of all peoples and naturally has priority over the individual) and tries to fit the world into an intellectual model based on these assumptions. The result of this is that anything that does not fit into the nationalist model is rejected out of hand as a corruption or deviation that is to be resisted, instead of being incorporated into the nationalist view of the world and being taken as an opportunity to alter or improve it. An example of this is the rejection of contemporary culture on the Isle of Man as "alien" or "not truly manx", and the portrayal of those who defend it as "west Brits", or some other"uncle tom"-esque character, often regardless of their arguments. Identity and culture are immensly complicated subjects, certainly on an individual level, and even more so on that of the national collective, and yet nationalist ideology still seeks to categorize humanity into a neat collection of distinct, if sometimes interlinked, blocks. Ultimately, nationalism attempts to boil culture down to an collection of ideal national characteristics that have more often than not been arbitrarily plucked from the very thin air of myth and romantic histories, and what's worse is that this is then used to define what is and isn't "Manx", and decide what does and doesn't have value.

 

It is prone to all the flaws and evils of any other form of identity politics or ideology, and is one that is founded on a shaky understanding of culture and history (sure, the facts and figures are often there, but what they actually mean or their context largely escapes nationalist analysis for the simple reason that they've already decided that Manx is Manx and Manx is inherently good), seeking to displace the modern and awkwardly crowbar a vague reconstruction of an "ideal" and half imagined past identity in its place. Nationalism is a divisive belief that ultimately ignores the practical in favour of what appears to be prerequisites for national identity and common destiny (which are often determined by a few, using reasoning that is itself questionable, such as in the case of Mec Vannin's belief in a Manx university) and demeans all people by enshrining an abstract concept of the nation in a position above those who actually constitute that nation.

[Bananaman]

What did I ask you to do Vinnie?

 

Pah!

 

I'll do it mes'en now!

[VinnieK]

lol well you are closer, though not by much I admit.

[Skeddan]

Leaving the term 'nationalism' aside, what about self-determination as now accepted as being a fundamental principle of international law - is this a flawed doctrine? What is the objection to that principle (as I asked oldmanxfella, but he didn't reply).

 

What about the right of a people to be free from foreign subjugation? Is this an 'ideology' which is objectionable?

 

If no objection to these principles, then the next question is applicability of these principles to IoM.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Nationalism is also a relatively new concept with the rise of the nation state.

 

I find it interesting how in everything I have ever read on the Isle of Man from between 1800 to 1900 conveys how much the populace were all for the Empire, for the King, and Britain. The customs of the Manx people were unique in many respects but less so today yet the Manx had a stronger affiliation to Britain.

Today there is little to distinguish a Manxman from an Englishman. I think it is sad that those peculiarities have long since gone. But some of the modern day nationalism and patriotism I come across from the Manx, English, Welsh, Scottish, etc. just comes across as cringeful to say the least. Whether that is english supporters flying flags on their cars, welsh and less so scottish people ranting on about how great it is to be welsh or scottish.

 

On the Island and how you here ridiculous claims and links regarding the Isle of Man. Everything seems to be blown out of proportion. Freedom to Flourish and the branding campaign are just cringeful (though it is driven by the government and worse the business community) and you can't go anywhere without seeing the "Three Legs of Mann"