Mec Vannin Make Believe

[VinnieK]

Then sleep in peace, my honored ancient race,

Your earthly cares are now for ever fled,

Leaving behind no mark for man to trace,

Your faults or virtues to your lonely bed.

And tho'no sculpture decorates your tomb,

Nature shall dress, at each returning spring,

Your lonely mansion with the heather bloom,

While mountain larks around your shrine shall sing.

And when no more the rays of summer smile,

But winter storms from the bleak north emerge,

And wrap in gloomy vest your native isle,

Te osier reeds shall sigh your funeral dirge.

(from An Elegy of An Ancient Burying Ground) (te is Manx and means 'tis.)

 

Does this seem to you to be the work of someone who had recieved no schooling?

 

Little to no structure, a static metre, simple rhymes employed on alternating lines, and using common imagry and the most basic poetic techniques. In other words, it reads exactly like the work of someone who's had little or no schooling, which of course is the case for Kennish.

[Frances]

My point is that the SPCK had no independent check on what they were told - I've said that I believe the figure were probably reasonably correct and fit in with early 19th quoted statistics. Kneen I'm not sure about, there were classes and numbers were reported but they were small and always better things were promised - the Manx Language Society had more popular success with its Manx dialect plays than with the Manx laguage classes - Kneen wrote that as a young man and was more measured in later life (he was givin Tynwald grants and some of the recognition he deserved late in life)

 

I'm not a Gaelic scholar - I refer you to Thompson + others for the detailed discussion on Manks verse

[Skeddan]

VinnieK, it's not for me to try to teach poetry, nor would I attempt to unravel this piece or attempt to make its meaning explicit. I'd just suggest that before judging it so quickly, consider the various undercurrents of meaning that might be going on here rather than presume it to be of little worth. You might begin at the end (as is often a good place to start) and consider the symbolism associated with osier reeds (willow) and the admittedly well worn sleep/death allusions (as in Matthew 9:24 or the lines on the monument at Tong which some have attributed to Shakespeare: "Ask who lyes here but do not weep/He is not dead he doth but sleep"). There is a great deal more besides which gives depth to this work and which shows that Kennish was not only well schooled (in certain respects) but also a fine poet, albeit in ways that might not be recognised by the standards you may judge him by.

 

BTW the surface simplicity may itself be telling, especially when one observes the 'tomb'/ crypt / 'nature dress' hints that suggest perhaps a bit more to this, and given that such technique means that those who are 'unschooled' will consider it as not deserving of serious attention (but that is just a way of looking at it).

[Freggyragh]

What work by Thompson are you referring to? What do you know about JJ Kneen's classes? You admit you are not a scholar of Gaelic, and I'm afraid that means you cannot discuss linguistic elements of this argument. The arguments you have are based on speculations that certain individuals were biased in their judgements - I'm afraid the bias in yours is all too clear.

[Skeddan]

Frances, I think Freggyragh's comment is one which you should consider:

 

The arguments you have are based on speculations that certain individuals were biased in their judgements - I'm afraid the bias in yours is all too clear.

 

To give one specific example:

 

an article by a rather strong Irish Nationalist who came over to the Island immediately pre WW1 on a pan-Celtic recruiting drive

 

You clearly insinuate a bias and unreliability.

 

However the article in the Manx Quarterly of September 1914 has this endorsement:

 

Being officially associated with the Intermediate Education Board for Ireland, his remarks in reference to Manx in our schools ought to have some weight.

(my italics)

 

Manx Quarterly published this, and if it was a pack of tripe, they would presumably not have accepted it, or required some modifications. However to add this endorsement goes even further. Maybe the Manx Quarterly 'should not trouble us in our opinion'?

[Frances]

you can give what weight you want to them - his understanding of the 1872 situation was wrong - the Manx Quarterly was a collection of mostly reprinted articles from the Manx Examiner (of varying accuracy, depth of research etc some very inaccurate) selected by, amongst others, William Cubbon who was a leading member of the Manx Language society - I cannot find another ref to Niocaill's comment about London though I don't have all the Manx Language society annual reports, certainly it wasn't in any from 1910 - as a 'rather strong Irish Nationalist' read the article - things were polarised just before WW1 and the Dublin uprising. Maybe from your research you can tell me his official standing in Irish education of that period (he appears to be mentioned in several Irish language texts) - Ann Harrisson (in vol 5 of New History) - "To such ardent celticists Ellan Vannin appeared a lost cause" (there is brief mention of our ardent celticist in http://dublin.anglican.org/books/2006/bk06...xperiment.html)[/url where he is one of thenow forgotten names]

 

I'm not trying to comment on any linguistic aspects but the political/social historical ones

[VinnieK]

VinnieK, it's not for me to try to teach poetry, nor would I attempt to unravel this piece or attempt to make its meaning explicit. I'd just suggest that before judging it so quickly, consider the various undercurrents of meaning that might be going on here rather than presume it to be of little worth. You might begin at the end ...

 

I think you may be confusing meaning with technical proficiency. Anyone can use symbolism to convey a given meaning, but only someone trained and educated in poetry can employ technique to turn a collection of rhyming, oblique statements into a poem. Yes the poem has meaning, and indeed it employs a great deal of symbolism to transmit this medium, but the techniques he uses to convey this meaning add nothing where they could be used to great effect. Instead the poem's power and scope for expression is limited by a bland rhythm, and an unvarying pace that serves only to create a sense of monotony as the poem draws towards its anticlimax. This could be forgiven if the poem was a particularly ingenious use of subtlety, but the symbolism isn't even that original, never mind subtle, and its form actually acts to undermine any supposedly deliberate negligence of technical "clutter": instead of embracing simplicity with a sparse use of language (which would have complimented the subject matter), he instead pours everything into a dense, shapeless block, piled high with clichés and a shedload of symbolisms when just one or two would have done the job just as well.

 

It's not a bad poem, and it's not unpleasant to read, but it isn't the product of education and a thoughtful composition.

[staaue]

My reference to the 1703 Ecclesiastical Constitutions passed by the tenth Earl of Derby.

 

It should be viewed in context with events of the following centuries and how all these little events, though small, were significant in stopping the use of the Manks language.

I may have came across in a manner which implies this sole event caused the demise of the language, this was not my intention. I do however believe it was a good start for it's subsequent demise; one of the straws that broke the camels back - so to speak.

 

 

Vinnie, I'm sorry to disagree with your critique and acceptation of the poem; why don't you post some of your poems here to show us how much you know what you are talking about.!!!!

[Frances]

It should be viewed in context with events of the following centuries and how all these little events, though small, were significant in stopping the use of the Manks language.

I agree- my whole argument all along was that there was not a "Great English Conspiracy to Kill Off the Manks Language" but a whole collection of decisions, many well meaning and probably at the time the best, that led to its decline - sins of omission rather than commission were more likely.

[Freggyragh]

VinnieK, it's not for me to try to teach poetry, nor would I attempt to unravel this piece or attempt to make its meaning explicit. I'd just suggest that before judging it so quickly, consider the various undercurrents of meaning that might be going on here rather than presume it to be of little worth. You might begin at the end ...

 

I think you may be confusing meaning with technical proficiency. Anyone can use symbolism to convey a given meaning, but only someone trained and educated in poetry can employ technique to turn a collection of rhyming, oblique statements into a poem. Yes the poem has meaning, and indeed it employs a great deal of symbolism to transmit this medium, but the techniques he uses to convey this meaning add nothing where they could be used to great effect. Instead the poem's power and scope for expression is limited by a bland rhythm, and an unvarying pace that serves only to create a sense of monotony as the poem draws towards its anticlimax. This could be forgiven if the poem was a particularly ingenious use of subtlety, but the symbolism isn't even that original, never mind subtle, and its form actually acts to undermine any supposedly deliberate negligence of technical "clutter": instead of embracing simplicity with a sparse use of language (which would have complimented the subject matter), he instead pours everything into a dense, shapeless block, piled high with clichés and a shedload of symbolisms when just one or two would have done the job just as well.

 

It's not a bad poem, and it's not unpleasant to read, but it isn't the product of education and a thoughtful composition.

 

It's not an accurate critique, but it does show some understanding of literary criticism, although it is expressed in the most hackneyed terms. The failure to understand the metre and its use within the context of the poem is rather unpleasant to read. Not the product of education, nor a thoughtful critique - just Vinnie's usual crap.

[Freggyragh]

Frances - you don't seem to trust the words of Cubbon, Kneen or Hildesley, so if you were wanting to find out about the Manx Language today, who would you ask?

[Frances]

have you done your basic research yet and told us who Mr MacNeil was and his quailification to pronounce on Manx Schools (hint I believe he landed up in the Irish parliament and possibly had some link with University college Dublin) - Cubbon choose it to make a political point - the comment I made about SPCK is that the figures were probably accurate but derived not from their own research but from statements made to them.

 

Re Manx today there are published tables of those taking classes - I see most days those children attending the Manx Language school at St Johns so I'm happy to accept the language has gone through a significant revival.

[Freggyragh]

It should be viewed in context with events of the following centuries and how all these little events, though small, were significant in stopping the use of the Manks language.

I agree- my whole argument all along was that there was not a "Great English Conspiracy to Kill Off the Manks Language" but a whole collection of decisions, many well meaning and probably at the time the best, that led to its decline - sins of omission rather than commission were more likely.

 

Yes, this may have been the sentiment:

 

"I exceedingly disapprove of your publishing anything in the Manx language. On the contrary, we should do everything in our power to abolish it from the earth, and to persuade every member of our Society to learn and talk English."

John Wesley, 1798.

 

But the practice more subtle:

 

"About 1904 some local enthusiasts attempted to introduce the study of the Manx language as a part of the island school course. It was manifest after careful enquiry that the language had no literary value, for there is no Manx literature beyond some fairy stories and folksongs. Nor has it a commercial value, for obvious reasons. It has an antiquarian value; but between 9 A.M. and 4.30 P.M. the time is already fully occupied, and the rates and taxes will hardly bear the additional strain of sentiment. The Board in Whitehall is very unwilling to interfere with Manx local option in education, for the island pays all the school grants, and he who pays the piper may call the song. Whitehall confined itself to the sprinkling of cold water on the scheme. I heard no more of it."

 

memoirs of a English inspecor of schools:

http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/fulltext/hmi.htm[/i][/i]

[Freggyragh]

And - to restate what I said before, without individual Englishmen, the wider antipathy to the language would have prevailed- I would include Wilson, Hildesley, Goodwin (Edmund, not Edwin!) and Rutter in an historic context - and many more in a more modern context.

 

Sorry Frances, but who are you asking to do their basic research? I didn't quote McNeill, Skeddan did - and I think he outlined to you who he was.

[Frances]

John Wesley was of his time - the words were of an old man and were ignored locally (the Manx Hymnal was produced and printed) - however I never said all all were supportive of Manx when in fact many (including many Manx ) were not - most argued that English was necessary for 'getting on' in life and you can see the comments that T E Brown makes re decline of Manx that the idea of bilingualism was not thought to be possible yet it probably could have worked much in the way that a friend's children are bi-lingual in English and Welsh with education in both languages - maybe this will be case for Manx in the future.