Sebrof Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 In fact, since it appears that there is considerable doubt about the legaility of the loans, and since whatever he says, Profitt (there's a man with the wrong name) clearly had a conflict of interest, I should imagine there is scope for the government to do quite a hard deal with Barclays. Or more likely the MEA will have to stick to the legally binding contract they already have with Barclays Bank. Legally binding if it was not ultra vires. And the fact that Profitt was working for both Barclays and the MEA means there is a question mark over whether the deal was done at "arms-length". The government would be quite entitled to say that the MEA is going to be wound up, and if the assets don't cover the liabilities, they will cover all debts that were properly incurred. The onus would then be on Barclays to prove their debt. I suspect they might prefer to quietly transfer the debt to the government, at the rate of interest that would have applied if the loan had been taken out by government in the first place. I think we can assume that they knew (because Profitt organised it) that the loan was taken out by Manx Cable in order to circumvent the rules. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 I think a Tynwald resolution - passed something like a year ago - sanctioning the loans will be good enough for Barclays. It would make the government look a bit odd to now attempt to renage on this loan. Can we keep this discussion in the realms of reality please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 I think a Tynwald resolution - passed something like a year ago - sanctioning the loans will be good enough for Barclays. It would make the government look a bit odd to now attempt to renage on this loan. Can we keep this discussion in the realms of reality please. This came out of my suggestion that the government assume the debt, so that the MEA can start again with a clean slate. PK suggested that Barclays wouldn't agree, but I think there is plenty of room for the government to assume the debt, AND negotiate better terms. Barclays does not come out of this smelling of roses, as far as I can see. What we have at present is a total fudge, with the MEA charging too little to recover its costs, the government giving a rebate that is too small to make up the deficit, and an insolvent MEA continuing to make bigger and bigger losses which are going to sock the government in the eye sooner or later. And there is nothing to stop Tynwald, if it wishes, reversing it's original resolution if "new facts come to light". However, I am not holding my breath! S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 I think a Tynwald resolution - passed something like a year ago - sanctioning the loans will be good enough for Barclays. It would make the government look a bit odd to now attempt to renage on this loan. Can we keep this discussion in the realms of reality please. On the 12th July 2007 : TYNWALD voted to sanction retrospectively [pounds sterling]120 million of apparently unlawful borrowing by the Manx Electricity Authority. And it really stuck in the craw. That's the reality... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 TYNWALD voted to sanction retrospectively [pounds sterling]120 million of apparently unlawful borrowing by the Manx Electricity Authority. And it really stuck in the craw. That's the reality... Far better that than have the IOM government blacklisted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 Which is, of course, the paradox they're trapped in. The IOM is now pretty much totally dependant on it's financial sector. Which means, of course, that's it's got to show itself as being squeeky clean as far as financial regulation goes. Therefore the last thing it needs is publicity showing that those allegedly managing it's affairs can be financially shafted in it's own back yard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 Can we keep this discussion in the realms of reality please. What we have at present is a total fudge, with the MEA charging too little to recover its costs, the government giving a rebate that is too small to make up the deficit, and an insolvent MEA continuing to make bigger and bigger losses which are going to sock the government in the eye sooner or later. It would be great if the Goverment was able to state that: 'the Government guarantees that the continuing increase in losses by the MEA and the MEA's financial situation will not result in either: any increase in energy costs to consumers over and above price rises due to increases in the day to day operational costs of generating electricity, and/or Manx taxpayers being required to contribute over and above the current annual levels of support provided to the MEA to resolve the MEA's financial situation' However I suspect that the 'realms of reality' will be when the situation described by Sebrof hits the proverbial fan - and it will be you and I who suffer. One way or another this situation looks likely to end up with additional taxpayers money being diverted from other worthwhile uses to pay for with the MEA financial crisis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponderer Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 I just love the added bit of 'and continued extra charges to meet the MEA's loans deficit'. How the hell do these bunch of bollock-chops get away with it, you'd think it too funny to be true. They illegally use funds, now have to pay it back and they get someone else to cough up. Imagine telling your loan officer at the bank that you'll not be paying them back the money you borrowed for the fortnight in Majorca and the new tyres on your Escort, but John Smith three doors down will pick up the bill. I imagine there's quite a few countries in the world where people that mess up on this scale are simply dragged outside and shot. It's still totally unbelievable that the very people who brought this on all of us were essentially allowed to get away with it scot free, but as long as everyone just sits on their couch and moans instead of marching to the homes of these people, symbolic torch and pitchfork in hand, nothing will ever happen. This is an island of 80.000, many of which claim to be proud manx souls, yet again and again you allow yourself to be put over a barrel for a right royal shafting and do nothing about it - makes you wonder... Hmm. There may be 'quite a few countries' where people that 'mess up on this scale are simply dragged outside and shot' but I for one and extremely proud that I come from a nation where this is NOT the case. And will be very prepared to use all the democratic mechanisms available to keep it that way... So please put your 'symbolic torch and pitchfork' away young Amadeus and find some more democratic approach. How about trying a coherent rational argument instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 I for one and extremely proud that I come from a nation where this is NOT the case. And will be very prepared to use all the democratic mechanisms available to keep it that way... So please put your 'symbolic torch and pitchfork' away young Amadeus and find some more democratic approach. How about trying a coherent rational argument instead? Ponderer what democratic process would you recommend for dealing with the level of incompetence shown by past Boards and management at the MEA. My starter for 10 is that if an unlawful act has been committed take urgent legal action to ban those people involved from holding company directorships and senior management positions in the future - that would stop other poor bunnies experiencing their 'expertise'. What other steps do you suggest.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 I for one and extremely proud that I come from a nation where this is NOT the case. And will be very prepared to use all the democratic mechanisms available to keep it that way... So please put your 'symbolic torch and pitchfork' away young Amadeus and find some more democratic approach. How about trying a coherent rational argument instead? Ponderer what democratic process would you recommend for dealing with the level of incompetence shown by past Boards and management at the MEA. My starter for 10 is that if an unlawful act has been committed take urgent legal action to ban those people involved from holding company directorships and senior management positions in the future - that would stop other poor bunnies experiencing their 'expertise'. What other steps do you suggest.... Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponderer Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 I for one and extremely proud that I come from a nation where this is NOT the case. And will be very prepared to use all the democratic mechanisms available to keep it that way... So please put your 'symbolic torch and pitchfork' away young Amadeus and find some more democratic approach. How about trying a coherent rational argument instead? Ponderer what democratic process would you recommend for dealing with the level of incompetence shown by past Boards and management at the MEA. My starter for 10 is that if an unlawful act has been committed take urgent legal action to ban those people involved from holding company directorships and senior management positions in the future - that would stop other poor bunnies experiencing their 'expertise'. What other steps do you suggest.... Exactly! Thanks Gladys and Manshimajin. I think you've just proved my point! I actually think there are plenty of other rational mechanisms for dealing with the situation in addition to your potentially reasonable suggestions.. All manner of scrutiny, investigations and so on. All of them have one thing in common. They are light years away from adolescent suggestions which talk about other places where people are 'simply dragged outside and shot' or 'symbolic torch and pitchfork' proposals... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 My starter for 10 is that if an unlawful act has been committed take urgent legal action to ban those people involved from holding company directorships and senior management positions in the future - that would stop other poor bunnies experiencing their 'expertise'. What other steps do you suggest.... That's all very well, and I don't disagree, but the real problem was not the unauthorised loan but the absurdly extravagant projects that necessitated the loan. Eighty thousand people just can't afford power projects that cost several hundred million, and still leave them exposed to rapidly rising world energy prices. That's the real "crime". S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponderer Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 My starter for 10 is that if an unlawful act has been committed take urgent legal action to ban those people involved from holding company directorships and senior management positions in the future - that would stop other poor bunnies experiencing their 'expertise'. What other steps do you suggest.... That's all very well, and I don't disagree, but the real problem was not the unauthorised loan but the absurdly extravagant projects that necessitated the loan. Eighty thousand people just can't afford power projects that cost several hundred million, and still leave them exposed to rapidly rising world energy prices. That's the real "crime". S Thanks Sebrof. I'm not sure I agree with you but your comments seem very reasonable. No mention to comparisons with places where people are 'taken outside and shot' or to 'symbolic torch and pitchfork' behaviour... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTF Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 if you shot all the incompetents over here in possitions of public responsibillity you'd be charged with genocide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 That's all very well, and I don't disagree, but the real problem was not the unauthorised loan but the absurdly extravagant projects that necessitated the loan. Eighty thousand people just can't afford power projects that cost several hundred million, and still leave them exposed to rapidly rising world energy prices. That's the real "crime". S Sebrof, my reason for saying 'starter for 10' was that I wondered if other forum members have constructive ideas about how to deal with the incompetence that seems to stretch through the former Board and senior management of the MEA into the ranks of Government. Disqualifying directors and managers from holding Board and senior management positions is one sanction that hits at incompetence at that level and sends out a message. But what other actions are available? adverse publicity via the media for those involved at the political level? Pressure, again via the media, on the Government to 'come clean' on how it will manae this appalling situation from now on? Querying of Tynwald retrosppectively approving an unlawful act - and making those involved in so doing financially accountable? It seems right to expose incompetents to the full glare of publicity. But of course this won't fix the underlying problem as their incompetence HAS left us all potentially exposed to above industry rises in energy prices to pay for their follies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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