triskelion Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I reckon I could stand us losing our director of highways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 I'm not talking about the cashier at the tax office or the receptionist at the Manx Museum - I meant doctors, nurses, teachers etc. Why would they flee the Island? My impression is that the migration of doctors and nurse to countries such as Australia and New Zealand is motivated by everyday working conditions in the NHS in the UK and by the opportunities that there are overseas for better lifestyles. I would think that the same applies on the Island. They won't leave just because of some changes to pension arrangements but because of working conditions and lifestyle issues. Add in that the tax rates here are very beneficial and the Island lifestyle is pretty good (despite what Salford used to say), and for doctors at least, so is the lack of CGT and maybe IHT. These sought of 'threats' are typical of a union with nothing better to argue and no constructive suggestions to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macmannin Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 On a tangent,is it true that one in five workers in the Island work in government?I think I heard Roger Watterson saying this on Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Basically public sector "workers" pay nothing towards a pension. So already their wedge is at least 5% (bare minimum pension contribution) above those of us in the private sector. Couple that with their early retirement at 60 plus job security, more sickies whenever they feel like it with no comeback and no P&L targets to hit and you can understand why those actually generating the dosh to pay for these freeloaders feel aggrieved at the way they are whining about "their" pension. Frankly I think they should keep their heads down, just to make a change... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hedgehog Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 On a tangent,is it true that one in five workers in the Island work in government?I think I heard Roger Watterson saying this on Sunday. No it isn't. Only one in twenty of them actually do any work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BETTYBOO68 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I paid 11% of my wage, every week, for 39 years - to pay for my pension. I am informed that to get my money back I will need to live to 83 but I am not sure how accurate that is. I - like all Police Officers - paid for my own pension at a much higher rate than most. I am indeed fortunate to be in the job I now have, but I work for that wage and I make sure I put in the effort and hours to give value for money, like I have all my working life. True. But weren't your contributions higher because of your earlier retirement date? I know a few Police Officers and the standard contribution appears to be 11%. IIRC the Police system does not rely on Retirement age, but rather years service, with 30 being seen as a full shift. So I guess DUdley worked quite a bit in excess of what he 'had' to. In the private sector "average scheme" if you retire early (pre-65) you lose 3% of your pension for every year before normal retirement date.....snip.....snip......Unlike the Scribbling Servants who can go earlier with no penalties? Most Public Servants are on a retiremtn age of 60, although they can work longer. And I'm pretty sure there are actuarial reductions if you go early, although this may not apply if you have a 'full' 40 years in. Just what % of salary do the Manx public sector pay into the scheme anyway? Because clearly it's not enough... Think it may vary but it used to be 1.5% (effectively non contributory as a penison, this percentage was to cover family benefits IIRC), this was changed in the last year or two, increasing to 3.5%, or you could stay at the lower rate and give up certain benefits. government manual workers pay just over 6% into their pensions, under the new proposed scheme they will be robbed blind by the governemnt when they retire, those that planned to retire at 60 will have their lump some reduced by a percentage for each year they retire before 65, to try and win employees around to stay till 65 they are saying monthly payments will increase. government are scaremongering with threats of increaase taxes and reduced workforce is we dont buy into it, politicians (if you could call them that!) are the untouchables no change to their pension but i would love to know what percentage they pay in! why should polictions,judicial , police, firemen and teachers be all exempt from the change because their wages are linked with UK? dont they get paid by the isle of man governemnt? the pension plans are a load of codswallop and aimed at the ordinary worker.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Peters Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 PK, I'd gladly keep my head down on this topic as thinking about pensions makes it hurt, but you're wrong. My pension scheme is one of the many that's covered by this review. Remember, MR is owned by the taxpayer (in simple terms) with the stock held by Treasury, and the annual operating budget comprising something like 40% subvention/60% commercial income. I think I pay 5% of my monthly pay cheque into the pension pot (bit more than nothing). My company has targets for targets, no job is any safer than in the private sector, and I've just had my first three days sickie (norovirus - no option) for a considerable time. You assert that public sector workers are already ahead of their private sector counterparts by virtue of their pension - only true if the salary is the same in both cases. But let's draw a line under this - fact is, the antipathy being shown to PSW's is uncalled for. When you apply for a job, you go for the best package you can, and if part of that is a good pension, then so be it. Bit like anyone who bought an endowment mortgage years ago - on the basis that at maturity they could pay off their mortgage principle AND have a big cash payout (of course, the actuaries had got it wrong again, and the whole system fell into disrepute, with people ending up with a shortfall). Well, the pension thing is a similar con - we've all bought into a scheme with promises made by the scheme administrators (our employers), we've kept our part of the bargain (despite often needing the money more early in life) and then been told that the goalposts have shifted and we're likely to be short-changed. Doesn't matter if you're public or private sector, the proles have been shafted again by the pigs. The irony is that even our fellow animals are turning on us rather than the porkers. The world is broken. The lunatics are on the grass. Just keep drinking the cheap beer and watching Gladiators, your government knows what's best for you ('back - and to the left'). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman2 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I'm not talking about the cashier at the tax office or the receptionist at the Manx Museum - I meant doctors, nurses, teachers etc. Why would they flee the Island? My impression is that the migration of doctors and nurse to countries such as Australia and New Zealand is motivated by everyday working conditions in the NHS in the UK and by the opportunities that there are overseas for better lifestyles. I would think that the same applies on the Island. They won't leave just because of some changes to pension arrangements but because of working conditions and lifestyle issues. Add in that the tax rates here are very beneficial and the Island lifestyle is pretty good (despite what Salford used to say), and for doctors at least, so is the lack of CGT and maybe IHT. These sought of 'threats' are typical of a union with nothing better to argue and no constructive suggestions to make. your growing on me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman2 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 On a tangent,is it true that one in five workers in the Island work in government?I think I heard Roger Watterson saying this on Sunday. No it isn't. Only one in twenty of them actually do any work thats good that .. its about a third of the work force in england including the armed forces even with alot of the work subcontracted out. im not sure whether that includes council workers .. although not sure enough to state as fact i dont think it does.. no doubt about it the labour government is one big job creation scheme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BETTYBOO68 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Basically public sector "workers" pay nothing towards a pension. So already their wedge is at least 5% (bare minimum pension contribution) above those of us in the private sector. Couple that with their early retirement at 60 plus job security, more sickies whenever they feel like it with no comeback and no P&L targets to hit and you can understand why those actually generating the dosh to pay for these freeloaders feel aggrieved at the way they are whining about "their" pension. Frankly I think they should keep their heads down, just to make a change... [/quote manual workers & medical staff pay into the pension scheme just over 6% of their monthly wages, . anyone born after 1951 have to work till 65 no more retiring at 60 unless you can afford and made other provisions for income. public sector workers freeloaders? (maybe the high earners or the politicians who are exempt) majprity of public sector workers have a good reason to whinge about the proposal of changes in the pension scheme, some people who have paid in for years so they have a lump sum to pay off their mortgage and a little left over are now freting about their future..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman2 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Dudley perhaps you'd like to take the 45% loss my stock market linked private pension achieved last year. You must remember all the warnings attached to market linked funds........ The value of your investments can go down as well as up. You may not get back everything that you invest! You could have equally made a killing. I think its such good value having to double my personal contributions to compensate for this whilst I'm paying for every government worker to have a nice comfy retirement. I guess they probably think that too.... Trying to court sympathy from the people paying your pension are you? If your a government worker you wouldn't know about investments going down as well as up would you? You'd just be happy that we're all paying for you to have every risk in your life underwritten at our expense. No chance of redundancy, guaranteed inflationary pay increases, job related death benefits, sickness and long term illness pay at no cost to you, no risk of unemployment, then a final salary pension index linked for life for you and for your partner when you die. Don't preach to me about risk when you have no concept of what risk actually means. fs the job isnt without any risk you know .. what if he accidently stapled his fingers together .. thats no laffin matter you know .. they dont put a [uSE AT YOUR OWN RISK } stamp with big letters on them for no reason you know for know .. and they gotta be smart as well .. otherwise they would only be fit to work in one of our fine banking institutions or god forbid a lawyers.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman2 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 yours and stus replys were good uns betty.. shines a different light on things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 I think I pay 5% of my monthly pay cheque into the pension pot (bit more than nothing). My company has targets for targets, no job is any safer than in the private sector, and I've just had my first three days sickie (norovirus - no option) for a considerable time. You assert that public sector workers are already ahead of their private sector counterparts by virtue of their pension - only true if the salary is the same in both cases. But let's draw a line under this - fact is, the antipathy being shown to PSW's is uncalled for. When you apply for a job, you go for the best package you can, and if part of that is a good pension, then so be it. Bit like anyone who bought an endowment mortgage years ago - on the basis that at maturity they could pay off their mortgage principle AND have a big cash payout (of course, the actuaries had got it wrong again, and the whole system fell into disrepute, with people ending up with a shortfall). Well, the pension thing is a similar con - we've all bought into a scheme with promises made by the scheme administrators (our employers), we've kept our part of the bargain (despite often needing the money more early in life) and then been told that the goalposts have shifted and we're likely to be short-changed. Doesn't matter if you're public or private sector, the proles have been shafted again by the pigs. The irony is that even our fellow animals are turning on us rather than the porkers. The world is broken. The lunatics are on the grass. Just keep drinking the cheap beer and watching Gladiators, your government knows what's best for you ('back - and to the left'). Stu, maybe individuals are showing antipathy but I think a lot of people are basically very worried about the way the costs of the various public sector schemes are escalating out of control and will continue to do so if nothing is done. This is not a unique Manx problem. Governments deliberately chose to ignore the burgeoning pension deficits in the public sector and to continue to fund them out of general revenue. The trouble is that this problem will not go away. Age demographics are making it a major issue and expense (both increasing number of retirees and longer life expectancy). This has been a predictable problem for 25 years or more - but noone in the PS or in Government has done anything far reaching about it. Now of course we have to add onto this foreseeable and unaffordable scenario the impact of the dramatic fall in fund values which simply makes the defecit problem worse. The private sector has responded to this predictable situation by moving some time ago from defined benefit to defined contribution schemes, which require considerably less funding (and frankly are not as good). Often this has meant freezing existing DC schemes at a point in time and transferring members across to the DB scheme. Even so many private sector companies are in real trouble because of the size of their pension deficits. However the private sector can't levy money from all taxpayers through general revenue to fix the funding problems - which the Public Sector has been able to do on an ongoing basis. I am not sure what the feelings have been amongst indiviual public sector employees about the gathering storm clouds. Senior managers, Treasury employees and most HR employees should have clearly understood the problem - if they did not they were incompetent. Politicians should also have been very aware of the issue. Their lack of action seems to me to be case of culpable commercial cowardice and laziness. At best these two groups have hidden the truth from employees. The lack of pre-emptive action by those with knowledge of what was happening means of course that we are all caught between a rock and a hard place due to their laissez faire incompetence - and their indecisive passing of the buck to someone/anyone in the future. Well the future is here now. Either we look forward (if that is an appropraite phrase in the circumstances) to more and more of the tax take simply going to underwrite the deficit rather than to maintaining and improving services or some unpalatable action has to be taken on contribution rates. The CM is getting a lot of stick for what is happening but at least a politician is belatedly trying to bite this bullet whereas this is precisely what his predecessors ran away from - leaving him to deal with the mess in the stable. I tend to agree with your comment about the big con - it has just taken longer to reach the public sector as there has always been an escape route via using tax to whitewash over the dirt on the wall. But surely those in the know must have seen this coming when they were getting people to sign contracts - or were they stupid? Deceitful or ignorant - what a choice. Personally I think some reasonable contribution rate has to be paid by everyone in the schemes. In the private sector a reasonable defined contribution scheme usually had employee contributions in the range 6-9%. If Hyman/Robertson think 1.5% for a 50% final salary scheme is sufficient I would say it is incredibly generous and suspiciously low. I think the era when we could be generous with pension schemes, spend £60 million on questionable airport works, allow the MEA to run out of control and build things like the QB roundabout have gone. Amongst all this mess our MHKs look like dinosaurs grazing. 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manxman8180 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Trying to court sympathy from the people paying your pension are you? If taking the piss out of you is 'courting sympathy' then guilty as charged. No chance of redundancy, guaranteed inflationary pay increases, job related death benefits, sickness and long term illness pay at no cost to you, no risk of unemployment, then a final salary pension index linked for life for you and for your partner when you die. That sounds like a reasonable deal, why don't you apply? If your a government worker you're Maybe you have but your grammar let you down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman2 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 definately a private schooling poke that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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