Israel vs. the rest of the world?

[Lxxx]

 

I conclude rather that Israel is not sincere about land for peace, and that it's true intention is to grind away doing what it is currently doing until both the West Bank and Gaza become completely untenable by their Arab citizens. Israel is impervious to international criticism and UN resolutions, and attempts all the time to conflate such criticism with anti-Semitism, which it is not.

 

I have never heard them commit to "land for peace", so how could they be insincere about it? Yes, they are impervious to international criticism and UN resolutions, because those things don't mean diddly squat in the final analysis. What matters to Israel is their own survival as a people. And yes, the general international consensus against Israel is anti-semitic, because it is tantamount to the dismantling of the Jewish state. If Jews followed world opinion, they would have to build a rocket and go live in another solar system, or else have a mass suicide, because most people on this planet suffer from a mental disorder known as anti-semitism.

 

I await your explanation as to why you are not calling for the dismantling of Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Morocco, Syria, and Yemen, and the establishment of mini Jewish states in those countries for the nearly one million Jews who were forced out of their properties in those countries, most of them taking refuge in Israel.

 

Should have just stuck to Uganda as they were going to initially. Would have been a lot less hassle.

[Thomas Jefferson]

From the IOM Today website discussion on aid for Gaza that has brought out pro-zionist Islamaphobes and well balanced human beings alike:

 

STB1 wrote:

 

"Zionism is a fundamentalist perversion of Judaism, it is the Jewish equivalent to so called Islamic extremism. What ISIS are doing now in Iraq and Syria is fundamentally no different from what the Israelis did in Palestine in 1948. Ethnic cleansing and genocide, and yet you defend Jewish Zionist terrorism and genocide, but oppose it when done by Muslims."

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

TJ and the other pro-zion rabble on here must be pro ISIS then.

 

Sorry, Mark, but that idiot on the IOMToday comments section is not qualified to tell people what is or isn't Judaism.

 

Zionism is only the belief that Jews should dwell in the land of Israel, which is exactly a belief of Judaism. Modern Zionism is the same but is based on secular nationalism and national self-determination. A lot of people confuse Zionism with Israeli Government policy, which is unfortunate.

 

Zionism is not only a part of Judaism, it is one of its most fundamental apsects. Have you even read the Torah? (Clue: It's the first five books of the Old Testament). The connection between the Jewish people and the land of Israel is central to the entire religion. They are supposed to be there. Jewish religious liturgy and halakha (the Jewish legal system) is based around living in Israel. All of their religious festivals and holy days are oriented around the agricultural cycle of the land of Israel.

 

And what is all that nonsense about "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide"? When is that supposed to have happened? You are just making stuff up.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Thomas Jefferson

[Thomas Jefferson]

AYN RAND weighs in

 

[spook]

When it comes to Judaism it never ceases to amaze me how many have such blatant hatred of Jewish people and their religion and yet know so very little about either.

 

Irrespective of the biblical authority the world decided that the modern state of Israel should be located where it is.

 

Oh what's the point. Let's face it. People like to hate Jews. They don't know why, they just do. It's a European meme. If Jews ate pollution and excreted petrol they would still be hated. It's sickening.

[spook]

From the IOM Today website discussion on aid for Gaza that has brought out pro-zionist Islamaphobes and well balanced human beings alike:

STB1 wrote:

"Zionism is a fundamentalist perversion of Judaism, it is the Jewish equivalent to so called Islamic extremism. What ISIS are doing now in Iraq and Syria is fundamentally no different from what the Israelis did in Palestine in 1948. Ethnic cleansing and genocide, and yet you defend Jewish Zionist terrorism and genocide, but oppose it when done by Muslims."

I couldn't agree more.

TJ and the other pro-zion rabble on here must be pro ISIS then.

Either that or hypocrites.

What a load of rubbish. I'm unsure if this is the ranting of a bigot or the excreta of a troll, in either case it's nonsense.

[Lxxx]

 

 

From the IOM Today website discussion on aid for Gaza that has brought out pro-zionist Islamaphobes and well balanced human beings alike:

 

STB1 wrote:

 

"Zionism is a fundamentalist perversion of Judaism, it is the Jewish equivalent to so called Islamic extremism. What ISIS are doing now in Iraq and Syria is fundamentally no different from what the Israelis did in Palestine in 1948. Ethnic cleansing and genocide, and yet you defend Jewish Zionist terrorism and genocide, but oppose it when done by Muslims."

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

TJ and the other pro-zion rabble on here must be pro ISIS then.

Zionism is not only a part of Judaism, it is one of its most fundamental apsects. Have you even read the Torah? (Clue: It's the first five books of the Old Testament). The connection between the Jewish people and the land of Israel is central to the entire religion.

Anyone who wants a really 'informative' read should read the Talmud.

[spook]

 

 

 

 

From the IOM Today website discussion on aid for Gaza that has brought out pro-zionist Islamaphobes and well balanced human beings alike:

STB1 wrote:

"Zionism is a fundamentalist perversion of Judaism, it is the Jewish equivalent to so called Islamic extremism. What ISIS are doing now in Iraq and Syria is fundamentally no different from what the Israelis did in Palestine in 1948. Ethnic cleansing and genocide, and yet you defend Jewish Zionist terrorism and genocide, but oppose it when done by Muslims."

I couldn't agree more.

TJ and the other pro-zion rabble on here must be pro ISIS then.

Zionism is not only a part of Judaism, it is one of its most fundamental apsects. Have you even read the Torah? (Clue: It's the first five books of the Old Testament). The connection between the Jewish people and the land of Israel is central to the entire religion.

Anyone who wants a really 'informative' read should read the Talmud.

Which one?

Edited August 18, 2014 by spook

[Chinahand]

That land is Jewish land and always has been. They've been in that land for 4,000+ years and the only reason they were ever departed from it is because they were forced out.

It is basically impossible to respond to fundamentalism of this sort. It is "essentialist" and sees individuals as captives to a particular cultural or religious identity. Using what happened thousands of years ago to justify drawing national borders today is frankly ridiculous - should we be re-instating the Danelaw, returning Canaan to the Canaanites and demanding the constitution drafted by Thomas Jefferson is overthrown for ignoring indigenous Indian rights?

 

It is a recipe for nothing other than chaos, violence and ethnic cleansing.

 

Up until the 20th century populations were predominantly rural. In ancient times urban populations were tiny proportions of populations - far less than 15% - but history was all about the movers and shakers of the urban environment and the power they gained through the control of rural populations.

 

The rural population of an area tends to remain while elites are driven out to exile and a new elite enforces its cultural mores.

 

There is a lot of genetic evidence that significant populations have remained settled in Israel since prehistoric time. They weren't forced out - the Roman's depopulated Jerusalem, not the rural population - the peasants just remained and carried on doing all the things settled populations do - absorbing outsiders, having immigrant and migrant flows, and going forth and multiplying.

 

And guess what, these populations underwent cultural change - many remained Jewish, but others became Christian and later Muslim - though initially there was resistance to this, as non-Muslims paid taxes so there was little incentive to demand conversion.

 

 

... you refer to the Palestinians as having been there since ancient times but no such people existed. You are literally making up history, creating a fictional people out of thin air. Arabs who have lived in the land became Arab Israelis. They are Arab Israelis, not Palestinian Israelis.

 

Most of the Arabs in the region are descended from a mass influx of cheap labour from the surrounding countries during the British Mandate.

 

I think you are the one being ahistorical here.

 

What people called themselves is complicated, but there was a large settled non-Jewish population that had historically lived in this region and been subject to Roman, Byzantine, Frankish and Muslim depredations over the centuries. These inhabitants of Palestine may have experienced some in-migration, but the demography of the area is mainly a settled population naturally growing with a migrant component - both Arab and Jewish. By the late 19th and early 20th century the original population was already far larger than any in-migration, and high fertility totally dominated as the population grew due to high birth rates up to the censuses of the modern era

 

The area was not a depopulated waste land which was suddenly filled by outsiders in the 1920s.

 

The only solution that I see is for a singular Jewish state, and for the Arab states to integrate refugees instead of perpetuating a deliberate refugee crisis. How many decades have Palestinian "refugees" been in Jordan, for example? Why in all that time have they been kept in refugee camps and not integrated? They are being kept as refugees so they can be used as pawns against Israel, to keep it an open wound and foster hatred.

 

It's already too late for the "west bank" to be part of another state alongside Israel, and Gaza isn't viable. Likewise, Israel without the west bank is not a viable state. A two state solution is not on the cards. A one state solution where they all join hands and sing kumbaya my lord is not on the cards either, for self-evident reasons. Either there is a Jewish state (where Arabs live....as already happens in Israel) or there is an Arab state (where Jews have been exterminated).

 

 

You want it both ways TJ. You want to be able to condemn Jews being forced out, but also demand that is how the non-Jewish population is treated.

 

Demographics mean there cannot solely be a Jewish state without the forced removal of millions of people.

 

You deny the historical presence of the non-Jewish population and their cultural inheritance in this area - again something you insist is recognized for Jews.

 

I agree with you it is wrong and terrible that Jewish communities were targeted and forced out of Arab and Muslim countries. It is totally unacceptable to treat minorities like this.

 

But the same holds for Israel and its aspirations towards the non-Jewish populations it controls.

 

The UN recognized the sovereignty of both the Jewish and Palestinian communities - I think that is right and defend the creation of both Israel and a state for the Palestinian population of the area.

 

The idea either side should be forced into exile is wrong and for either side to think it can unilaterally enforce its might on the other is simply a recipe for war and violence.

 

Surprise surprise that is exactly what is happening.

 

And will continue to happen as long as the type of ethnic essential-ism portrayed by TJ holds sway.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Chinahand

[spook]

That state for the Arabs who didn't want to remain in the part of the land that formed the British Mandate was created by the British when they formally recognised what had been Trans Jordan as Jordan. The remaining part was to be the land on which the nascent Jewish homeland was to established.

[Vulgarian]

I admire your patience and tenacity, Chinahand, but I get the feeling you are wasting your time on a lost cause.

[mojomonkey]

I admire your patience and tenacity, Chinahand, but I get the feeling you are wasting your time on a lost cause.

 

You Zionist, Anti-Semite, Islamophobe*!!!!!

 

(*delete as applicable)

 

Hopefully that will save time

[Chinahand]

@Spook.

 

No, the UN created a Palestinian state - separate from Jordan. That state was certainly initially invaded and annexed by various countries, but those actions didn't end the rights of the Palestinian people to sovereignty. Just as the Jewish rights wouldn't have been ended if they had been defeated in 1948, 67, 73 etc.

 

I've written before there have been a huge number of different ideas about how that sovereignty should be manifested - in a Pan Arab Federation, a trans-Jordanian Confederation, one part of a two-state solution, shared as a part of a one-state solution.

 

Again none of those ideas mean the non-Jewish population has lost it's rights to exercise its sovereignty - something they very clearly wish to do.

 

A population numbered in the millions is been denied sovereignty - TJ and Spook are literally demanding ethnic cleansing on a huge scale and the removal of this sovereignty.

 

Those demands are massively unethical and will just result in more conflict.

 

I agree too many Jewish communities have been treated this way. That is a terrible indictment on the Arab regimes which have no doubt been contemptible in their violence and aggression towards Israel.

 

I condemn that.

 

But two wrongs don't make a right and Israel's denial and oppression of Palestinian aspirations to sovereignty - and especially calls for ethnic cleansing - are also wrong, and no way to give Israel peace.

 

Israel used to face existential threats from Jordan and Egypt, but now they are partners with many similar strategic goals.

 

I feel the same can happen with a Palestinian state, but to do that takes compromise on both sides.

 

Sadly, I doubt it is going to happen in my lifetime - but then again who would have imagined the settlement with Egypt so soon after the Yom Kipper war - let's hope. Peace isn't an impossibility, just unlikely given the mindset on both sides.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Chinahand

[Thomas Jefferson]

Anyone who wants a really 'informative' read should read the Talmud.

 

Indeed. The Talmud is one of the greatest bodies of literature of all time. I particularly like Pirkei Avot, such as this nugget from Hillel: "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And when I am only for myself, what am 'I'? And if not now, when?" Quite a different philosophical approach to the "gain wealth, forgetting all but self" ideology we have to put up with in the Isle of Man today.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Thomas Jefferson

[Chinahand]

In Our Time on Radio 4 discussed the Talmud not that long ago - as ever an excellent program from Melvin Bragg.

[spook]

I'm surprised some silly sod hasn't come up with The Protocols of the Elders of Zionists yet.