Promenade - Megathread

[Derek Flint]

13 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

Given how disastrously the project has gone so far, I would imagine they've been promoted.

Actually this job is specified more generally and permanently and may be unconnected with the Prom.  But it illustrates one of the problem when you privatise highway works.  You need to employ people to closely monitor and document the way every job is done, so that if there is any dispute with contractors, you will have all the details for arbitration or litigation.  Obviously the contractors will be doing the same, so the extra cost of the process can be considerable.

Of course some documentation is essential - we've already seen how poorly even recent works on the Prom have been recorded.  But this doesn't seem to cover this - it's all "systems and procedures".

The contractors won’t have gone off piste.

they will have been issued with a spec. They will then have built it to that spec. 

They won’t question the spec, nor point out if something just won’t work, because making the DOI look like schmucks is contract suicide. 

You won’t get any more gigs

[Non-Believer]

8 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

because making the DOI look like schmucks is contract suicide.

And DOI are provenly more than capable of doing that all by themselves anyway...

[Numbnuts]

52 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

The contractors won’t have gone off piste.

they will have been issued with a spec. They will then have built it to that spec. 

They won’t question the spec, nor point out if something just won’t work, because making the DOI look like schmucks is contract suicide. 

You won’t get any more gigs

Totally correct . No way would they query the spec and indeed why should they . They have the might and expertise of IOM Government behind them with no apparent cost restrictions in arriving at the plans. However there's clearly lots wrong with the spec and even workmanship , hollows on tarmac and concrete isn't good , so there will be lots of apportioning blame going on behind the scenes . In fact it's already started but while Auldyn aren't completely off the hook they will have just carried out works as per spec. More than there life's worth to do anything else tbh . 

[WTF]

the i was only following orders didn't wash in nuremburg and it shouldn't here.

[yootalkin2me]

On 12/24/2019 at 6:09 PM, Derek Flint said:

The contractors won’t have gone off piste.

they will have been issued with a spec. They will then have built it to that spec. 

They won’t question the spec, nor point out if something just won’t work, because making the DOI look like schmucks is contract suicide. 

You won’t get any more gigs

That's just not true Derek, there have been many instances over the years, large and small schemes, where Sub-Contractors have either misinterpreted drawings and specifications or completely ignored them and done their own thing. 

[Tricky]

On 12/24/2019 at 3:19 PM, Derek Flint said:

I see there is a relocation allowance for this job, so that would suggest they will be looking for off-island expertise, strongly suggesting that it doesn't exist here.  

One of the single biggest issues in Government is the absolute barmy procurement policy/procedures, and the insistence of the IOM Government to use locals.

The Government want to employ locals to do works in pretty much every situation, which is fine if the measure of success is rooted in making everyone feel all 'warm and fuzzy' and there is an absolute acceptance of substandard works.  If it is a proven fact that the competence and resources can be fulfilled locally, great, i'm all for that.  The problems begin however when people start biting off more than they can chew (far too common), and the government happily provide the meal via taking a seat for lunch at the MACCS restaurant. 

If the government wish to procure people to take on large, complex tasks, where there is no proven history or track record of success, the procurement net must be spread further afield.  Results have to come first i'm afraid, and if local companies (and I mean from design stage, not just workers on the ground) can't complete works to the required standards, they either have to up their game, or face losing out on jobs from the cash cow that is the IOM Government.  I'll reference the abomination that was Gansey/Shore Road to reinforce this point.

[Derek Flint]

43 minutes ago, yootalkin2me said:

That's just not true Derek, there have been many instances over the years, large and small schemes, where Sub-Contractors have either misinterpreted drawings and specifications or completely ignored them and done their own thing. 

Oh, Ok.

Thanks for clearing that up. 

Can you think of any specific examples?

[Non-Believer]

13 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

Oh, Ok.

Thanks for clearing that up. 

Can you think of any specific examples?

I can think of a considerable length of water main in the north of the Island that a contractor was paid to renew (old cast iron replaced with new plastic). Roads affected by trenches had the trenches re-tarmacked. Apparently.

Until a resident on the one of the roads had a water supply problem obliging them to dig out across their property to the main. Which proved to be cast iron.

Water bods were advised and said, "It can't be, it was all renewed with plastic along there"

"Come and have a look".

Transpired that the work had never been done. Thin skims of tarmac had been taken along the routes and then replaced to give the impression.

Wonder who was supposed to have supervised all that?

[Derek Flint]

4 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

I can think of a considerable length of water main in the north of the Island that a contractor was paid to renew (old cast iron replaced with new plastic). Roads affected by trenches had the trenches re-tarmacked. Apparently.

Until a resident on the one of the roads had a water supply problem obliging them to dig out across their property to the main. Which proved to be cast iron.

Water bods were advised and said, "It can't be, it was all renewed with plastic along there"

"Come and have a look".

Transpired that the work had never been done. Thin skims of tarmac had been taken along the routes and then replaced to give the impression.

Wonder who was supposed to have supervised all that?

And there is the key part. The DOI and utilities have their own works supervisors. There was one out every day when they did some major civics next to my property, and they still managed to cock it up. Despite the observations of the contractors and myself, they contractors were told to press on. 

[Roger Mexico]

On 12/24/2019 at 6:09 PM, Derek Flint said:

The contractors won’t have gone off piste.

they will have been issued with a spec. They will then have built it to that spec. 

They won’t question the spec, nor point out if something just won’t work, because making the DOI look like schmucks is contract suicide. 

You won’t get any more gigs

There's some truth in that, but you're assuming that problems must be caused by either the specs or the contractors being rubbish.  Whereas in reality both these things may be true.  Indeed poor specs may actually encourage poor work due to lack of clarity or because contractors won't take any care because they think such an incompetent customer won't have the skills to notice sloppiness.  It's certainly true that poor design will guarantee a poor result whatever the workmanship, but poor execution can still screw things up whatever is done.

What I do think is true in this case is that a large multi-national, such as Colas, will have the procedures in place to mount a defence when things go wrong, whether they were responsible or not.  To some extent the new systems job (which may not be related to the Prom project, given that it is permanent) is trying to do the same thing, which suggests the DoI doesn't have such procedures (who would be surprised?).

[yootalkin2me]

5 hours ago, Derek Flint said:

Oh, Ok.

Thanks for clearing that up. 

Can you think of any specific examples?

Recently:

Richmond Hill and Johnny Watterson's Lane resurfacing with high friction material. 

NSC current works

Peel Road between the Brown Bobby and the Quarterbridge 

There are also numerous smaller schemes, too many to list.

[Derek Flint]

39 minutes ago, yootalkin2me said:

Recently:

Richmond Hill and Johnny Watterson's Lane resurfacing with high friction material. 

NSC current works

Peel Road between the Brown Bobby and the Quarterbridge 

There are also numerous smaller schemes, too many to list.

How many of those are definitely down to contractor?

Was Richmond Hill laid to a specification?

NSC issues - specifically what did the contractor cock.up?

Peel Rd - again, spec or shoddiness?

Really just curious. I know that there is usually pretty tight spec. issued so there isnt a lot of room for wriggle, and DOI oversees the work so its an interesting mix.

 

[yootalkin2me]

24 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

How many of those are definitely down to contractor?

Was Richmond Hill laid to a specification?

NSC issues - specifically what did the contractor cock.up?

Peel Rd - again, spec or shoddiness?

Really just curious. I know that there is usually pretty tight spec. issued so there isnt a lot of room for wriggle, and DOI oversees the work so its an interesting mix.

 

I don't know the semantics, I wish I did but I do know some of the contractors as well as some Government staff (don't we all, it's a small island) and some are good at what they do and some are not.

[TheTeapot]

Ever tried challenging an architect? 

"Just shut up and do what's on the plan"

"it won't work"

"Just do it"

The work is carried out according to spec. It doesn't work.

"Why the fuck have YOU done it like that?"

Sigh

[Non-Believer]

38 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

How many of those are definitely down to contractor?

Was Richmond Hill laid to a specification?

NSC issues - specifically what did the contractor cock.up?

Peel Rd - again, spec or shoddiness?

Really just curious. I know that there is usually pretty tight spec. issued so there isnt a lot of room for wriggle, and DOI oversees the work so its an interesting mix.

 

How often do these contractors work without proper DOI oversight? And is that oversight itself adequate?

Peel Rd, problems found to be with the way the contractor was laying the foundations. Using a tracked digger to compact substrate. Not picked up until later.

NSC, now subject to legal wrangles?

Richmond Hill, appears to have been a substandard application. 

But where is the oversight for these jobs? Why are the standards not being, apparently, adhered to?