Nobles Hospital

[Boo Gay'n]

22 hours ago, Andy Onchan said:

 

There is only one person who sits on both the Transformation Political Board and the Transformation Board itself that knows almost everything there is to know about how IOM Public Services work.

Aah, the teflon-coated Chief Secretary Will Greenhow.  It's interesting that nobody ever questions his contribution to the never ending series of government cock-ups, isn't it?

[Uhtred]

4 hours ago, Boo Gay'n said:

Aah, the teflon-coated Chief Secretary Will Greenhow.  It's interesting that nobody ever questions his contribution to the never ending series of government cock-ups, isn't it?

Why does the head of the civil service sit on the ‘Transformation POLITICAL Board’?

[display name]

2 minutes ago, Uhtred said:

Why does the head of the civil service sit on the ‘Transformation POLITICAL Board’?

Guidance

[Uhtred]

2 minutes ago, display name said:

Guidance

Oh yeah...of course.

Actually, this is the devil and the deep blue sea isn’t it...would you want brain dead COMIN making decisions without civil service input, but then again do you want shadowy unaccountable mandarins manipulating imbeciles like Quayle?

And as Boo points out, not exactly an award winning performance by the Chief Secretary anyway.

[display name]

3 minutes ago, Uhtred said:

Oh yeah...of course.

Actually, this is the devil and the deep blue sea isn’t it...would you want brain dead COMIN making decisions without civil service input, but then again do you want shadowy unaccountable mandarins manipulating imbeciles like Quayle?

And as Boo points out, not exactly an award winning performance by the Chief Secretary anyway.

Hmm,brain dead,or shadowy?   All hail the darkness,even if you believe in a thing called love.

[Derek Flint]

4 hours ago, Boo Gay'n said:

Aah, the teflon-coated Chief Secretary Will Greenhow.  It's interesting that nobody ever questions his contribution to the never ending series of government cock-ups, isn't it?

In his defence, they didn’t of his predecessor either.

 

[Roger Mexico]

6 hours ago, Boo Gay'n said:

Aah, the teflon-coated Chief Secretary Will Greenhow.  It's interesting that nobody ever questions his contribution to the never ending series of government cock-ups, isn't it?

There was a fascinating insight into how things work when Beecroft was questioning the suitability of Greenhow as someone to investigate the accusation of bullying by Cregeen[1].  In an interview with Manx Radio she said that when she was warned off trying to get rid of Couch, she was read the riot act by Greenhow, not by Quayle, who just sat there not saying anything[2].  

Of course it's not the place (as Beecroft points out) of civil servants to tell Ministers what to do or threaten them if they don't do what they are told.  The whole point of a democracy is that politicians decide the policies and actions and civil servants can only advise.  Whether the decision to defend Couch came from Quayle and he was just too cowardly to tell Beecroft to her face, or whether Quayle simply sees himself as a sort of political rubber stamp for whatever the senior civil servants want, it doesn't reflect well on him either way.

 

[1]  As I've said before, I'm not sure that 'bullying' is quite the right description here.  But what is true is that bullying will flourish in a culture where the management insists on their own infallibility and the maintenance of authority is seen as the only important reason for action.  Any attempt to change things or even carry things out under existing rules (if not recognised by the person in charge) will be seen as 'undermining' and suppressed.  And as Beecroft says, such culture comes from the top down; one more open to criticism, especially from below, will have less bullying because those being bullied will feel free to challenge it. 

[2] That information interestingly isn't in the text but is in the sound and video clips.  Obviously this was after they had hurriedly got rid of Couch, so she had some right to feel aggrieved for being sacked for suggesting the right thing but a bit too early.

[Uhtred]

1 hour ago, Roger Mexico said:

There was a fascinating insight into how things work when Beecroft was questioning the suitability of Greenhow as someone to investigate the accusation of bullying by Cregeen[1].  In an interview with Manx Radio she said that when she was warned off trying to get rid of Couch, she was read the riot act by Greenhow, not by Quayle, who just sat there not saying anything[2].  

Of course it's not the place (as Beecroft points out) of civil servants to tell Ministers what to do or threaten them if they don't do what they are told.  The whole point of a democracy is that politicians decide the policies and actions and civil servants can only advise.  Whether the decision to defend Couch came from Quayle and he was just too cowardly to tell Beecroft to her face, or whether Quayle simply sees himself as a sort of political rubber stamp for whatever the senior civil servants want, it doesn't reflect well on him either way.

 

[1]  As I've said before, I'm not sure that 'bullying' is quite the right description here.  But what is true is that bullying will flourish in a culture where the management insists on their own infallibility and the maintenance of authority is seen as the only important reason for action.  Any attempt to change things or even carry things out under existing rules (if not recognised by the person in charge) will be seen as 'undermining' and suppressed.  And as Beecroft says, such culture comes from the top down; one more open to criticism, especially from below, will have less bullying because those being bullied will feel free to challenge it. 

[2] That information interestingly isn't in the text but is in the sound and video clips.  Obviously this was after they had hurriedly got rid of Couch, so she had some right to feel aggrieved for being sacked for suggesting the right thing but a bit too early.

That was all a fascinating little opening of the window into the heart of government. It rings true also. Quayle’s motivation is intriguing. As you say, too cowardly to do his own dirty work and palms it off on his henchman? Or cowed by Greenhow and sits like a ventriloquist’s dummy? Or indeed both. However, no matter that Beecroft was a truly awful Minister (identified to Quayle as such by her political stablemates in DHSS don’t forget) if her sacking was engineered by Greenhow - or any other civil servant - that would be scandalous.

[Andy Onchan]

1 hour ago, Uhtred said:

That was all a fascinating little opening of the window into the heart of government. It rings true also. Quayle’s motivation is intriguing. As you say, too cowardly to do his own dirty work and palms it off on his henchman? Or cowed by Greenhow and sits like a ventriloquist’s dummy? Or indeed both. However, no matter that Beecroft was a truly awful Minister (identified to Quayle as such by her political stablemates in DHSS don’t forget) if her sacking was engineered by Greenhow - or any other civil servant - that would be scandalous.

Which makes you wonder who, exactly, the Chief Secretary takes his orders from. 

[Boo Gay'n]

12 hours ago, Andy Onchan said:

Which makes you wonder who, exactly, the Chief Secretary takes his orders from. 

It's an odd, and if you're inclined to be, worrying role.  The Chief Secretary is senior adviser to the Chief Minister, and sits at his right shoulder in every meeting of CoMin.  He is also the senior adviser to the Lieutenant Governor, and has a private meeting with him every week.  The third aspect is to be head of the public service, with all chief executives reporting to him.

[Derek Flint]

39 minutes ago, Boo Gay'n said:

It's an odd, and if you're inclined to be, worrying role.  The Chief Secretary is senior adviser to the Chief Minister, and sits at his right shoulder in every meeting of CoMin.  He is also the senior adviser to the Lieutenant Governor, and has a private meeting with him every week.  The third aspect is to be head of the public service, with all chief executives reporting to him.

It is basically the most powerful office on the Isle of Man.

[Dr. Grumpy]

51 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

It is basically the most powerful office on the Isle of Man.

More powerful than the CM's?

[WTF]

1 hour ago, Derek Flint said:

It is basically the most powerful office on the Isle of Man.

even above grand master ?

[Roger Mexico]

15 hours ago, Uhtred said:

That was all a fascinating little opening of the window into the heart of government. It rings true also. Quayle’s motivation is intriguing. As you say, too cowardly to do his own dirty work and palms it off on his henchman? Or cowed by Greenhow and sits like a ventriloquist’s dummy? Or indeed both. However, no matter that Beecroft was a truly awful Minister (identified to Quayle as such by her political stablemates in DHSS don’t forget) if her sacking was engineered by Greenhow - or any other civil servant - that would be scandalous.

Thinking about Quayle, I wonder if  there's something else going on.  He's someone who has done very nicely for himself, going through life doing what he's told.  He's very happy to settle into the life of a Minister in the Isle of Man Government which has become little more than a figurehead position, where they just read out the words written for them and take the money.  When this disruptive woman (and like many public schoolboys of his generation he may find that a problem in itself) comes along with a belief that politicians are supposed to be in charge, the last thing he wants to do is disrupt his easy life. 

You see in press conferences and even Tynwald how indignant he gets when people dare to ask awkward questions.  As far as he's concerned he's been a good boy and done what he's told and actually expecting him to be in more than nominal charge or understand what is really going on is a completely undeserved imposition.  So Beecroft has to go as she won't 'play the game'.

Of course this sort of attitude isn't limited to Quayle or even CoMin.  The nice easy life is why many went into politics and suggesting that politicians should take control, make informed decisions and (even worse) accept responsibility is horrifying to them[1].  So Beecroft behaving as a politician would in most other democracies is going to meet a lot of resistance, even if she hadn't been in a Department with a lot of vested interests.  Whether she was truly awful is another matter, I've heard mixed reports and I suspect she could have been more tactful at least.  But she was only there for not much more than a year and ill for a lot of the time.  And some of the decisions she was blamed for (such as Meals on Wheels) clearly came from Crouch who seems to have wanted to bring everything in-house.

 

[1]  It's not necessarily conscious.  Some have actually come to believe that is how Manx politics should operate and  many in the civil service believe this as well.  Certainly they will tell their politicians that is the way they 'have' to operate.  Ministers are expected to operate at best as the Chairman of a company often does in the UK - have little detailed knowledge of what is going on, chair some meetings and make the occasional speech.  Though many cases over the years have shown this isn't exactly a successful model in the commercial sphere either.

[Boo Gay'n]

37 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

Thinking about Quayle, I wonder if  there's something else going on.  He's someone who has done very nicely for himself, going through life doing what he's told.  He's very happy to settle into the life of a Minister in the Isle of Man Government which has become little more than a figurehead position, where they just read out the words written for them and take the money.  When this disruptive woman (and like many public schoolboys of his generation he may find that a problem in itself) comes along with a belief that politicians are supposed to be in charge, the last thing he wants to do is disrupt his easy life. 

You see in press conferences and even Tynwald how indignant he gets when people dare to ask awkward questions.  As far as he's concerned he's been a good boy and done what he's told and actually expecting him to be in more than nominal charge or understand what is really going on is a completely undeserved imposition.  So Beecroft has to go as she won't 'play the game'.

Of course this sort of attitude isn't limited to Quayle or even CoMin.  The nice easy life is why many went into politics and suggesting that politicians should take control, make informed decisions and (even worse) accept responsibility is horrifying to them[1].  So Beecroft behaving as a politician would in most other democracies is going to meet a lot of resistance, even if she hadn't been in a Department with a lot of vested interests.  Whether she was truly awful is another matter, I've heard mixed reports and I suspect she could have been more tactful at least.  But she was only there for not much more than a year and ill for a lot of the time.  And some of the decisions she was blamed for (such as Meals on Wheels) clearly came from Crouch who seems to have wanted to bring everything in-house.

 

[1]  It's not necessarily conscious.  Some have actually come to believe that is how Manx politics should operate and  many in the civil service believe this as well.  Certainly they will tell their politicians that is the way they 'have' to operate.  Ministers are expected to operate at best as the Chairman of a company often does in the UK - have little detailed knowledge of what is going on, chair some meetings and make the occasional speech.  Though many cases over the years have shown this isn't exactly a successful model in the commercial sphere either.

I think that you are right and wrong at the same time Roger.  You will have read the Government Code, which describes the relationships between senior civil servants and  ministers.  The minister does call the shots, and everything of significance (which I guess must be a judgement call) must always be run past them for awareness and/or approval.

If you have a reasonably competent minister and a reasonably competent chief exec, this is probably OK (all we do is copy the Westminster model after all).

But if you have a duff minister, a duff chief exec, or both, it becomes a dance of death - with either nothing getting done or things getting done badly.  It is much more likely that you will have a minister in the Isle of Man who wants to micro-manage than a chief exec who wants to do everything off their own bat without reference upwards, IMO.

There is a classic story that Two Planks Cregeen got himself a high-viz jacket with his name printed on it so that he could go and direct flood responses at the NSC etc. a couple of years ago.  That is ridiculous.

I agree with your analysis of Mr Toad completely.  A wag once told me that even his money came from Lorraine, so he isn't a success on that front either!