Mec Vannin Make Believe

[Albert Tatlock]

During the last election (just over a year ago) MEC Vannin confirmed itself as a 'dead duck' by not making an appearance. Their opinion is now as valid to Manx politics and Manx life as is 'the Beano' - as are their policies that are based in the 1960's and 1970's which have failed to evolve. Since then the island (and people) have changed dramatically - and membership of MV must now be at an all time low.

 

It's a shame really, because even if you don't agree with people, you should still insist they have a voice, as otherwise it just diminishes choice - and we end up with, as we have ended up with, the effective partocracy (single party) we have got, with the out of control civil servants we employ (the bureaucracy) - who regardless of who gets elected, never desist with their own rolling agenda and whom seem to multiply every year.

[Skeddan]

Albert, I wouldn't think getting elected makes any difference as the dice are already loaded there is only the sham of an elected representative government to cover the fact this is a quisling administration. What suprises me is that there is no 'nationalist' voice pointing out the not too hard to grasp point that IoM is under British Admistration, and that the government is not acting in the interests of the people, but in the interests of the UK, and the people's right to self determination is being denied.

 

I don't think you even need a political party. What is needed is an airing of the issues and bring some of the stuff out into the open. Do you think you have a free press? Do you think you think there is transparency in government (why must MHK's sign the UK Official Secrets Act?). What does it matter to anyone? Simply this, that when people are disempowered the social fabric gets worn down and you get social problems (sound familiar?). The impression I get is everyone is so pessimistic and defeatist that the problem is really bad. A healthy dose of political protest and making the Administration squirm a bit would help beat away the blues. Its really simple, just start like this - "Why no EEZ?" I'm sure the fishing industry will join in, and pretty soon you'll find others will join, and you have a movement... The country could benefit by millions (think schools, hospitals, pensions). Its easy - "Give us an EEZ!"

 

(For anyone who doesn't know, an EEZ is an exclusive economic zone - the exclusive right to fishing and natural resources in a 200 mile limit - or halfway to the nearest neighbour - which any country may declare, and which for some reason IoM has not. Just in case anyone is not aware, there are HUGE oil and gas fields in the Irish Sea, and the UK is pumping out the gas at this very moment. IoM might even become a member of OPEC, but for not having an EEZ...)

 

Doesn't anyone care that Manx resources are being plundered by the UK?

[Freggyragh]

Skeddan, Frances,

 

It is facetious to talk about the Stanleys as 'The Manx Crown' as opposed to 'The English Crown' - The Stanleys were instated by The English Crown and were quite prepared to to let the English Crown use our island as a base during their civil war - which would have caused a bloodbath. For most of their tenure the English Lords of Mann operated as absentee landlords who, rather than patronize the arts or contribute in any other way to Manx culture, preferred to behave as out and out parasites. What Illiam Dhone achieved was the security of tenure for his people. What this means is that, unlike what frequently happened in Ireland and Scotland, the Manx were not 'cleared' off the land. Anyone who does not understand what this means should visit the rest of 'The Kingdom of the Isles' and see the devastation wreaked by the 'clearances'. Whatever else Illiam Dhone did in his life, or whatever motive you prefer to pin to his actions we should be grateful for them.

 

I am not a member or active supporter of Mec Vannin. They would have to undergo a full re-branding for me to even consider joining. What puts me off is their constant sniping at the finance sector. I don't work in the finance sector, but I am quite proud of its achievements and the extent to which it has cleaned up its act. But, back to MV, I think you will find, to their credit, that they have been campaigning about fishing and mineral rights for at least a couple of decades.

 

Oh, and Skeddan 'crap' in Manx Gaelic is not still 'crap' - it is 'keck'.

 

Lhiu.

[triskelion]

Does all this talk of 'quisling' governments entitle me to invoke Godwin's law?

 

Albert - I'm not sure this is what you meant, but surely if membership of Mec Vannin is at an all time low, there their voice is going to be severly diminished anyway. I agree that people of such views are entitled to express them, but I can't see how their reduced capacity to do so is how we have ended up with the ministerial bloc.

 

Skedden - Your posts on the current state of Government on the Island are largely rhetorical. Do you have any facts with which to back up these assertions (eg. exactly how much the UK takes for defence). One possible explanation for MHK's having to sign the UK Secret's Act is that, as part of the Island's legistlature, they are privy to the details of the VAT Sharing Agreement, which is also UK law and not open to the public. As Cheeky Boy pointed out, the oil and gas platforms are all UK territory anyway, and I'm unconvinced that the Island needs an EEZ simply to protect its scalops (despite the horrendus events in Peel recently)

[ai_Droid]

Skedden - Your posts on the current state of Government on the Island are largely rhetorical. Do you have any facts with which to back up these assertions (eg. exactly how much the UK takes for defence). One possible explanation for MHK's having to sign the UK Secret's Act is that, as part of the Island's legistlature, they are privy to the details of the VAT Sharing Agreement, which is also UK law and not open to the public. As Cheeky Boy pointed out, the oil and gas platforms are all UK territory anyway, and I'm unconvinced that the Island needs an EEZ simply to protect its scalops (despite the horrendus events in Peel recently)

 

Agree, I'd like to see some specifics to back up the argument. I always understood that we have a fairly good deal with the UK Government.

[Albert Tatlock]

I agree that people of such views are entitled to express them, but I can't see how their reduced capacity to do so is how we have ended up with the ministerial bloc.

As Plato said: 'The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men.'

 

And no, I'm not saying our leaders are evil men - just that with little unorganised opposition, and so much apathy, that most of them seem to get away with sitting on their arses following the same old agenda from the previous administration, and following whatever line put forward by the CM and a few ministers. There is little sign of any activity with regard to the manifesto content put forward by many candidates elected during the last election. Indeed many have not even been heard of since the last election (with the exception of some pitiful social comment which is usually the preserve of a local borough councillor) - not even a leaflet, over one year in, pushed through the door of the electorate showing their manifesto 'progress'.

 

IMO, with the voracity of appetite for cut and paste UK legislation over the past ten years, each day we seem to operate more and more like a UK county. At least opposing voices can help to keep things a little more balanced, whilst protecting some of the unique differences between the island and the UK - many of which have started to dissapear in recent years, little by little, bit by bit. They are so complacent, they haven't even bothered to listen to the island majority crying out for LegCo reform (i.e. an elected LegCo).

 

My point in terms of MV, was that they are not a credible opposition anymore, nor even a voice listened to these days. On the other hand, LV just play at being an organised opposition. Without an organised opposing voice (or indeed an elected check and balance) to assess and spell out the alternatives for public debate, we will always end up with a ministerial bloc with little regard for accountability to Joe Public.

[ai_Droid]

IMO, with the voracity of appetite for cut and paste UK legislation over the past ten years, each day we seem to operate more and more like a UK county. At least opposing voices can help to keep things a little more balanced, whilst protecting some of the unique differences between the island and the UK - many of which have started to dissapear in recent years, little by little, bit by bit.

 

For example?

[alpha-acid]

Agree, I'd like to see some specifics to back up the argument. I always understood that we have a fairly good deal with the UK Government.

 

We did have this, has just changed under the new common purse agreement.

[Lonan3]

Isn't it strange - given the passion with which this has been debated - that when Phil Gawne suggested that there was a need for a new national party because MV had utterly failed to deliver, his suggestion was greeted with a resounding silence?

[Albert Tatlock]

IMO, with the voracity of appetite for cut and paste UK legislation over the past ten years, each day we seem to operate more and more like a UK county. At least opposing voices can help to keep things a little more balanced, whilst protecting some of the unique differences between the island and the UK - many of which have started to dissapear in recent years, little by little, bit by bit.

 

For example?

Undermining and over-regulation of our finance sector, links to UK/US systems - vehicle, personal tax details etc. uncontrolled immigration (retirees, not protecting local workers adequately, failure to manage housing sector properly etc.), generally adopting much UK designed legislation without question or sufficient analysis and ammendment (see list), allowing lobbyist-civil-servants (most of whom have come from the UK) to get away with actions that should only be taken by elected politicians and carry out their own agenda (recent e.g. Bruce Hannay).

[Frances]

Freggyragh

WC was not really responsible for safeguarding land tenure - the death of Earl James at Bolton was probably the major deciding factor - however I agree that his act avoided significant bloodbath - the land issue was not really sorted until near 50 years later with the Act of Settlement - and good governance didn't really come to the Island until the quaintly named act to confirm the act of settlement of 1777 which in Dolley's words, 'essentially emancipated the Manx people from their feudal past' with credit given to Wadsworth Busk (and Dolley was no English apologist!)

[P.K.]

Ahhh yes, "Mec Valium" as Rog used to very aptly call them. Still in the political wilderness are they? What a surprise not.

 

The thing is why does anyone even bother with them anymore? Their showpiece chance to strut their stuff, actually their only chance these days, the "Illiam Dhone Commemoration Oration" just gets more and more divorced from reality as the years pass. Their leadership has led them straight up a blind ally and with a paucity of initiatives they are likely to stay there - not that it bothers anyone overmuch.

 

Most political parties have no problems at all with publishing the burgeoning numbers of their membership. Most even take a pride in it. However Mec Valium seem strangely reticent on this point. I wonder why?

[triskelion]

I agree that people of such views are entitled to express them, but I can't see how their reduced capacity to do so is how we have ended up with the ministerial bloc.

As Plato said: 'The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men.'

 

And no, I'm not saying our leaders are evil men - just that with little unorganised opposition, and so much apathy, that most of them seem to get away with sitting on their arses following the same old agenda from the previous administration, and following whatever line put forward by the CM and a few ministers. There is little sign of any activity with regard to the manifesto content put forward by many candidates elected during the last election. Indeed many have not even been heard of since the last election (with the exception of some pitiful social comment which is usually the preserve of a local borough councillor) - not even a leaflet, over one year in, pushed through the door of the electorate showing their manifesto 'progress'.

 

IMO, with the voracity of appetite for cut and paste UK legislation over the past ten years, each day we seem to operate more and more like a UK county. At least opposing voices can help to keep things a little more balanced, whilst protecting some of the unique differences between the island and the UK - many of which have started to dissapear in recent years, little by little, bit by bit. They are so complacent, they haven't even bothered to listen to the island majority crying out for LegCo reform (i.e. an elected LegCo).

 

My point in terms of MV, was that they are not a credible opposition anymore, nor even a voice listened to these days. On the other hand, LV just play at being an organised opposition. Without an organised opposing voice (or indeed an elected check and balance) to assess and spell out the alternatives for public debate, we will always end up with a ministerial bloc with little regard for accountability to Joe Public.

 

This is a very interesting post, and its given me some thoughts:

 

Would it be better to have any future (presumably elected, though I could be convinced of the need for certain specific roles like a Surgeon-General) LegCo members barred from serving in the CoMin, reducing the possibilty that legislation is just 'waved through?'

 

Also, bring in several threads from the forum to replace the DLGE and the local authorities with one single body that is funded by council rates and is governed by a single representative from each current LA area, and maybe chaired by a Tynwald member. This would alleviate concerns expressed in one (probably more) thread that we are 'over-governed,' reduce disparity between services, improve efficiency and reduce the ministerial bloc by two (assuming the political member isn't also in another Department, as is currently the case with Juan Watterson).

 

Structual changes that improve democracy appeal to me more as I think they are more conducive to constructive debate than oppositional politics.

[Albert Tatlock]

Structual changes that improve democracy appeal to me more as I think they are more conducive to constructive debate than oppositional politics.

But that's the point isn't it - how do you get people, who prefer the status quo, to change the system? Organised opposition is the only way IMO, and that would mean the evolution of political party's.

[oldmanxfella]

Doesn't anyone care that Manx resources are being plundered by the UK?

 

I wasn't going to post in this thread but I've read what you have posted previously in your lofty position of not living here, reading a couple of threads, and then looking at our constitution and deciding we are being ripped off. Maybe historically, but less likely in modern history.

 

The main point to note is that the Island gets a rumoured £300m from HM Revenue & Customs because its VAT agreement so who exactly is plundering what? Yes, that means we pay VAT where the Channel Islands don't but without that payment we'd all probably be paying much higher tax than the 10% - 18% we do.

 

We also have social security and health agreements between here and the UK. So off Island hospital treatment is available in the UK NHS for any Manx resident who needs it - unlike Jersey where all healthcare is private so you pay for it. So again. Who is plundering what?

 

UK Laws don't tend to apply here unless we adopt them. Likewise with EU Directives. We certainly have more legislative freedom than the UK which has to cede control under every EU Directive its told to adopt. Yes the UK could legislate for us, but experience and conventions shows us that it does not. Despite our position as a Crown Dependency.

 

Also as mentioned by Cheeky Boy - the oil and gas platforms are all UK territory anyway so again what is being plundered? We've no oil rigs and the fish and scallops dried up years ago!

 

At the end of the day we pay a few quid for defence and have to put up with the Queen as a constitutional head of State. I'd do that for £300m a year.

 

The arguments you raise are simply not valid, are ill thought out, and do not consider what the alternative to our position is. Believe me we'd have gone down the independence route years ago if there was money in it because one of the few things our history does show you is that we'll do anything if there's a few quid in it for the powers that be.