China's Politics And Stuff

[Chinahand]

ScotsAlan, what is happening China is totally different from the UK's treatment of "Terror suspects". In the UK there is clear law, which can be, and has been, scrutinized by the UK Courts and Human Rights Bodies such as the European Court of Human Rights; the laws were democratically passed and are publically reviewed by not only Human Rights organizations like Amnesty, and Human Rights Watch, but also by such bodies as the House of Common's Human Rights Comittee which takes into acount objections by other Human Rights Bodies such as the UN Human Rights Comittee (see paragraph 17).

 

Sure, there are problems within the UK and I am quite definitely not claiming the UK is perfect in its Human Rights position and I am glad that bodies such as the Law Society take an active role in trying to improve law and order and Human Rights, it's a long slow difficult process, but all of this is entirely irrelevent to the situation in China.

 

In China, laws are being flaunted and people being tortured and detained extra-legally; the legal system itself is oppressive and provides no support to people who have been tortured, abused, and illegally held by the state, in fact quite the opposite it provides disproportionate powers to the state with people finding that after they have been abused extra-legally they are then confined through administrative detention etc with no opportunity of appeal. There is no oversight, with organizations such as Amnesty Banned from China, and China refusing to be a part of the UN's Human Rights process.

 

I'm not sure if you've been to China, but in my experience the idea that the average Chinese has more personal freedom than someone in the West is tragically untrue. China is a state full of petty bureaucracy, where every one from bosses, to supervisors, to security guards, to the police enforce their idea of the Harmonious Society upon those lower down the pyramid.

 

Dog ownership is restricted, smoking is banned in public - which has simply become an excuse for coruption and bribery - and if you don't want to sing the company song, do overtime, move along when asked, or pay a bribe when caught up in the petty rules which control everyday behaviour - well, then very quickly Chinese society will find ways to deal with you and your anti-social ways.

 

No doubt there is still progress to be made in justice and human rights anywhere in the world, the UK included, but to shrug your shoulders and simply go - those Chinese are treated no worse than us and probably overall have it better than us - is a monstrous dereliction of common humanity. ScotsAlan, you are wrong to say that, and taking that attitude allows oppression to openly prosper.

 

And yeah if Jiang Zemin is dead it'll give a frission of interest for china-hands such as myself as we wonder what it means for the influence of the 上海帮, but all in all its not that big a piece of news!

[Evil Goblin]

China - I've been to China several times in the last 18 months and the impression I have is that what Beijing says goes only so far as it suits the different regions. I wouldn't hold out a hope in hell of things like the smoking ban being enforceable - it will just be ignored. As long as something does not challenge the political supremacy of the Communist Party it does not tend to excite Beijing's concern very much.

[ScotsAlan]

China - I've been to China several times in the last 18 months and the impression I have is that what Beijing says goes only so far as it suits the different regions. I wouldn't hold out a hope in hell of things like the smoking ban being enforceable - it will just be ignored. As long as something does not challenge the political supremacy of the Communist Party it does not tend to excite Beijing's concern very much.

 

Yup Evil Goblin. You are spot on. They have the smoking ban, but they cleverly ommitted to put any punishments in place for people who choose to ignore it. I ignore it. Unless there are pregnant women or kids about of course.

[ScotsAlan]

I'm not sure if you've been to China, but in my experience the idea that the average Chinese has more personal freedom than someone in the West is tragically untrue. China is a state full of petty bureaucracy, where every one from bosses, to supervisors, to security guards, to the police enforce their idea of the Harmonious Society upon those lower down the pyramid.

 

Hi Chinahand. I am in China as I post this.

 

And my Chinese boss has never forced his idea of "Harmonious Society" on me. Nor has my mother in law (a very minor neighbourhood government official), or anyone else for that matter.

 

The ordinary Chinese people I know are no longer the brainwashed drones of the Mao era. That was a long time ago. Six years ago when I started visiting China there were a few portraits of Chairman Mao hanging in shops and offices etc. But there are practically none now. I see his portrait more in Manx Forums alongside your posts than I see it in China.

 

Smoking?.... banned from May this year, but not enforced. I have never had to bribe anyone to light up. Unless you consider it a bribe to offer a security guard a ciggarette as you sit in his guard house smoking. What would happen if I lit up in a Manx pub.... even if I was the only person in the place?

 

Dog ownership..... certainly not tightly controlled where I am. I know lots of people with dogs. Maybe they are tightly controlled in Shanghai, but are they not restricted to certain areas in Douglas?

 

I am definately not shrugging my shoulders and ignoring things. I just have an open mind. Does that make me monstrous? Is it not monstrous that western bombs are killing people in Libya because their political beliefs don't match with what western leaders say they should believe?

 

Yup, political freedom is an issue, but can you really say that the Isle of Man is a true democracy?

 

I still maintain that the ordinary Chinese person has more personal freedom than people in the west. Freedom.... with Chinese characteristics of course.

 

It just depends on what you define personal freedom to be :-)

 

Hits "post" and awaits the sirens......

[Chinahand]

ScotsAlan, I really don't know how to respond to you.

 

You, of course, have your own experiences of China, as I do to. Plus there is the media and academic sociological research.

 

No doubt what so ever China is a very different culture to the British Isles.

 

I've posted before than China does allow very considerable freedoms as long as you don't step into the boundaries the CPC has defined (this article sums it up the changes in 3 simple pictures).

 

The major issue is that the CPC's sensitive spot is huge - and if you get on the wrong side of it you'll be in trouble.

 

My basic reply is that you are a Westerner and so are given alot of leeway, and be very careful comparing life in Beijing with life in China generally. But even then - walk out of Tiananmen Square and up Nanheyan Dajie there will be a policeman ever 50 yards - or there was when I walked up there. Watch out for the Waitstaff at resturants being lined up prior to it opening - if you haven't seen some of the things I've alluded to I really don't think you've been looking.

 

People drink, and shag, and smoke in Zimbabwe, Belarus, and Iran - they own dogs and cats there too - I'd be very careful using a non-smoking policy as a bench mark for freedom. And for about the most intrusive interference possible ask your wife about the One Child Policy officer in her work unit. I wonder if you've ever written to her via her work - my aerograms were given to my then girl-friend already opened - just to check she, the little innocent, wasn't being lead astray by these horrid foreigners.

 

Our experiences are obviously limited - try reading this article on China Geek which shows the risks of taking a limited view as being representative.

 

The World Bank does very wide surveys to try to understand what countries are like - they produce a measure called the World Governance Indicators - these try and get away from anecdote and give a statistically bounded view of a country's freedoms and governance that can be compared between countries.

 

On Voice and Accountability - the area of a government's interference in a person's life - China is worse than 95% of the world's countries. It is worse than Zimbabwe, it is worse than Iran, it is worse than Belarus, its on a par with Saudi and Libya.

 

Genuinely ScotsAlan for you to go China is no differnt than the UK is objectively wrong.

 

****************

 

Oh on Mao - haven't you heard of the Red Revival and what Bo Xilai is doing in Chongqing?

 

The old Tyrant is being trundled out to bolster Party Support in the aging Middle Classes - Red Revival/nostalger for the old, Nationalism for the young - ask your friends about Japan, or the Korean war, or Taiwan (warning be very careful handling that one) - it makes for a fascinating evening.

 

 

[ScotsAlan]

Chinahand, I am lucky in that I am able to socialise and work with ordinary Chinese. I am not an investor or a manager. Just an ordinary Engineer, fortunate to work in a company that has genuine grass roots international teams.

 

I went to Beijing last Christmas with my wife, and I hated it. It is just as you say in your post. Oppressive and grey. Police everywhere and even a swat team parked outside of our budget hotel.

 

But China is a big country... as big if not bigger than western Europe. And that's easily forgotten.

 

So you should not be quoting facts and figures about individual countries such as Zimbabwe...why not quote facts and figures about Europe... Persecution of Romaneys in eastern Europe for example. The UK press and it's attack on Polish immigration to the UK. The emerging right wing in France.. Met police taking bribes from the news of the world...need I go on?

 

The biggest fear in China for ordinary people is the lack of free healthcare. They don't care what the CPC say or do. The people in the street laugh at them and their inept propaganda. They actually openly mock them. But they fear sickness. And their lives revolve around that. Cant pay? Ok... go away and die. So China has the same major injustice on human life as the USA. That makes me feel lucky to be a European.

 

I was in China when Liu Xiaobo was awarded his Nobel peace prize. I posted a photo of an empty chair on my Facebook page. Not personally of course because the internet was shut down that weekend. Even Freegate did not work. But that night I still got an email out with a photo of an empty chair that I had downloaded in China, and someone in the Middle East posted it for me. I had to do that.

 

So yup, perhaps I am a monster. But I don't choose to have a propaganda photo of the greatest mass murderer of the 20th century as my avatar.

 

I can hear sirens in the distance now :-o

 

Edit to add. Posted from China, apparently the most oppressed country in the world, via Google Chrome with no proxy. So sorry for the forthcoming crash Admin. Not my fault, Chinahand started it......

[pauld]

Anyone know whether the 2/300 Tibetan monks that were rounded up during the olympics for re-education, ever showed up again, are they still described as the missing in Tibet.

[ScotsAlan]

Anyone know whether the 2/300 Tibetan monks that were rounded up during the olympics for re-education, ever showed up again, are they still described as the missing in Tibet.

 

Goodness me, you are an energetic poster PaulD.

 

But Tibet in an interesting issue.

 

The west say the Dalai Lama should be in charge.

 

Why? Because some old guy in a robe had a dream about him when he was a baby. Great way to choose a leader

 

I actually tend to agree with China on this one.

 

If he was a real leader he would cross the border. But is that likely to happen? Nop.

[pauld]

And the 300 or so monks alan ?, what are they ?. a statistic ?.

[ScotsAlan]

 

On Voice and Accountability - the area of a government's interference in a person's life - China is worse than 95% of the world's countries. It is worse than Zimbabwe, it is worse than Iran, it is worse than Belarus, its on a par with Saudi and Libya.

 

 

I have 2 good facebook friends in Saudi. We do FB chat, Bobba and MSN on a regular basis. Get a grip Chinahand. The world is not all doom and gloom. The internet is changing the world.

 

Actually, an interesting anecdote.. While the internet in China was locked down during the Nobel peace prize ceremony... the itunes store worked perfectly. I wonder why? I downloaded Sgt Peppers :-)

[ScotsAlan]

And the 300 or so monks alan ?, what are they ?. a statistic ?.

 

What 300 monks?... I kowtow to your spamming capacity PaulD. Are you Keyboarder on steroids?

[Chinahand]

ScotsAlan, I think it is you who are letting your perceptions of one area create an impression of an continent sized country not me.

 

You keep bringing up problems else where - quite serious problems I agree - but quite simply they are not comparable with the situation in China.

 

The treatment of migrants in China - their living conditions, the rights of their children to be educated, their treatment by the police etc etc - are abysmal. Far, far worse than the conditions the Romany face. Yes, you can probably quote individual instances which are just as bad as anythhing happening in China, but the basic conditions and lack of rights migrants face in China are far worse, and far larger numbers experience things just as bad as the worse than happens to a Romany - ie murder with relatives made destitute.

 

When you mention police corruption in the UK and go "need I go on" I really have to ask how niave you are - sorry, but do you know anything about the corrupt use of state thugs to throw people off their land in China.

 

Yeah a policeman in the UK has taken a bung or two (a serious issue) - in China they've gone in with baseball bats, causing serious injury, or death, and driven people out of their family homes, which have then bulldozed after which the police have recieved a nice brown envelope from the property developer who's going to take over the newly cleared plot.

 

China and India are fascinating examples of huge continent sized developing countries.

 

India's Voice and Accountability is far higher than China's even though it is far poorer.

 

The World Bank figures give data on 6 measures:

Voice and Accountability

Political Stability Absence of Violence

Government Effectiveness

Regulatory Quality

Rule of Law

Control of Corruption

 

How do India and China compare -

 

INDIA

60 13 54 44 56 47

China, People's Republic of

5 30 58 46 45 36

 

Now India is alot poorer than China, about $1000 per capita GDP as compared to $3700 for China - so you can weight the results against GDP per capita.

 

So where would you expect India and China to be based on the wealth of their population:

 

INDIA

32 32 28 29 28 29

China

47 47 47 47 46 47

 

India is more unstable than you'd expect it to be 13th rather then 32 percentil, but in every other measure it is better than you'd expect.

China is far more repressive, not as stable as you'd expect and more corrupt, but is then only average on its Rule of Law and Regulatory effectiveness. It is better than expected at getting things done, Government Effectiveness, but you've got to really take the efficiency of the CPC with a pinch of salt - its no more effective than the Government of Brazil, and Mexico, that governmental paradigm, is more effective than China. Another comparable example is Thailand which beats China on every metric apart from Political Stability.

 

Alot is made that China has sacrificed human rights for improved Growth, and efficiency. That really doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

 

I think the most basic point is that sure, millions of people in Zimbabwe, Saudi, China, India, etc drink, laugh, and have a good time.

 

But when you compare countries like China, and Zim and Saudi with other comparable countries - India being a good proxy for China despite its larger poverty - you find China treats its people worse.

 

This isn't a sad fact of developmental poverty. Its a deliberate policy of the government to lock people up, stop them reading or listening to what they want to, and use violence and intimidation against them to enforce unpopular policies. Other similar countries which are just as poor and trying to bring their people out of just as severe poverty don't need to use these policies and can still have strong growth and increased prosperity.

 

I want to raise the conciousness of that fact and hence increase pressure for more enlightenned policies from China. Sure that's terribly idealistic, but that's me.

 

Yeah, I have a picture of Mao as my atavar, so what - he was a murderous tyrant.

 

But when you say China's no worse than the UK. I'm goint to say that is not true. Its a blinkered, partial view, that doesn't stand objective analysis.

 

And I'll endlessly put up data to make my point til you give up and go and have a fag and a beer!

 

And genuinely - if your doing stuff about Liu Xiaobo on a works computer, I'd be very careful - westerners only have so much leeway and I'm sure your boss doesn't need the hassle!

[pauld]

And the 300 or so monks alan ?, what are they ?. a statistic ?.

 

What 300 monks?... I kowtow to your spamming capacity PaulD. Are you Keyboarder on steroids?

 

You will just have to forgive my steroid induced 8 posts a day average alan, but i love the passive aggression, the thinly disguised adhom you exhibit, i usually just tell people to go fuckem selves, but before we proceed to that step with you, the monks i was talking about, were the ones arrested and deported for re-education during the olympics, for the crime of sitting down in the street as part of peaceful protest, all while the worlds eyes were focused on the olympic firework display.

Edited July 14, 2011 by pauld

[ScotsAlan]

 

And genuinely - if your doing stuff about Liu Xiaobo on a works computer, I'd be very careful - westerners only have so much leeway and I'm sure your boss doesn't need the hassle!

 

This is the only point you put forward I consider worth answering.

 

I am on my private netbook, not a company network.. Via wifi. With no proxy. I can mention Liu Xiabo, Dalia lama, Tiannamin Square Massacare, Tibet oppression, falun Gong.... what else do I need to say, to tell you that the China you maybe knew is not the China I know.

 

The China of today is not the China you think it is Chinahand. China changes every year... for the better.

 

You should visit China Chinahand. Not read about it in books....

 

sirens getting louder.

[ScotsAlan]

 

And I'll endlessly put up data to make my point til you give up and go and have a fag and a beer!

 

 

Data is boring..... I'm off to have a fag and a beer with the oppressive security guards.... they have some wicked illicit rice wine... and I only have to promise to be harmonious to get some.......

 

I can do that...hic :-)