Mezeron & Steam Packet Master Thread

[spook]

 

Can someone PLEASE enlighten me or at least give me ONE point what the government has to do with this? It was the Racket that messed up - no strategic planning, bad management, caught with their pants down. THEIR problem.

 

 

No. Their fault maybe, but our problem.

[Megan]

It seems to me that there are two issues here, one is the price the current owners paid for the Steam Packet company and the other is reason for the User Agreement.

 

Incidentally, the price paid for the Steam Packet was determined by the previous owners and paid by the current owners. The local management and staff did not set the price and I find it quite puzzling that there is so much vitriol and anger towards a local company and local people. It’s like blaming a tenant farmer for the price of his land - quite unfair.

 

Anyway, back to the price and the User Agreement - the two are inextricably linked as the value of the Steam Packet to the current owners was the long term, stable nature of the business. As an island, we will always be reliant on sea going freight and passenger services – that gives them long term - and the User Agreement granted the rights, if you like, to the majority of the freight business to the Steam Packet in return for their provision of passenger services – that gives the stability.

 

The Steam Packet get the security of the freight business, which allows them to provide daily services that would just not happen on a passenger only service without a government subsidy. You or I would not set up a business that committed to sail to the UK and back every day, just for passengers, in the winter. There just aren’t the numbers to make it viable.

 

The spirit of the User Agreement also gives security to the Steam Packet so that it can enter into the expensive business of investing in vessels, as required by the Agreement. Likewise, the Government have the security that there is shipping company tied into providing the vessels and the passenger services the Government wants. The letter of the Agreement may not have included Lift on Lift off but I believe that that is where the Government come in. They signed the Agreement with the Steam Packet, both sides making the commitment that gives us our lifeline. They should hold their nerve and agree that the spirit of the Agreement is more important than the letter.

 

If Mezeron can continue to take the cream off the top, by moving freight without the commitment to invest in vessels (so their chartered boats could tootle off somewhere else one day), without the commitment to provide daily passenger services (and pay the harbour dues for those passengers), without paying Manx workers (who then pay Manx tax and NI), without paying for the use of a linkspan (and I believe paying rent to site the other linkspan), the Government will lose revenue as well as passenger services. The freight revenue that Mezeron makes goes to its own coffers, the savings made by the hauliers also stay with them - unless they choose to pass on their savings to the public and - unlike the Steam Packet - they have made no commitment to use that revenue to benefit the island at all.

 

As I said before, I find the antagonism towards the local staff quite staggering. They are stuck between the Government, the public and their owners. All three want different things and they are all hard masters to please.

[Barrie Stevens]

It seems to me that there are two issues here, one is the price the current owners paid for the Steam Packet company and the other is reason for the User Agreement.

 

Incidentally, the price paid for the Steam Packet was determined by the previous owners and paid by the current owners. The local management and staff did not set the price and I find it quite puzzling that there is so much vitriol and anger towards a local company and local people. It’s like blaming a tenant farmer for the price of his land - quite unfair.

 

Anyway, back to the price and the User Agreement - the two are inextricably linked as the value of the Steam Packet to the current owners was the long term, stable nature of the business. As an island, we will always be reliant on sea going freight and passenger services – that gives them long term - and the User Agreement granted the rights, if you like, to the majority of the freight business to the Steam Packet in return for their provision of passenger services – that gives the stability.

 

The Steam Packet get the security of the freight business, which allows them to provide daily services that would just not happen on a passenger only service without a government subsidy. You or I would not set up a business that committed to sail to the UK and back every day, just for passengers, in the winter. There just aren’t the numbers to make it viable.

 

The spirit of the User Agreement also gives security to the Steam Packet so that it can enter into the expensive business of investing in vessels, as required by the Agreement. Likewise, the Government have the security that there is shipping company tied into providing the vessels and the passenger services the Government wants. The letter of the Agreement may not have included Lift on Lift off but I believe that that is where the Government come in. They signed the Agreement with the Steam Packet, both sides making the commitment that gives us our lifeline. They should hold their nerve and agree that the spirit of the Agreement is more important than the letter.

 

If Mezeron can continue to take the cream off the top, by moving freight without the commitment to invest in vessels (so their chartered boats could tootle off somewhere else one day), without the commitment to provide daily passenger services (and pay the harbour dues for those passengers), without paying Manx workers (who then pay Manx tax and NI), without paying for the use of a linkspan (and I believe paying rent to site the other linkspan), the Government will lose revenue as well as passenger services. The freight revenue that Mezeron makes goes to its own coffers, the savings made by the hauliers also stay with them - unless they choose to pass on their savings to the public and - unlike the Steam Packet - they have made no commitment to use that revenue to benefit the island at all.

 

As I said before, I find the antagonism towards the local staff quite staggering. They are stuck between the Government, the public and their owners. All three want different things and they are all hard masters to please.

 

Exactly! (And I have played a big part in running a 24 ship line using cheap ships to damage established lines in Africa). However, there is some naughty disinformation regarding the wages on the ships operated by Mezeron.

 

Statements imply that Mezeron are paying low wages. Bob Crow has reportedly spoken in this vein. In fact, if a ship is chartered the wages are paid only by the actual owner of the ship. Mezeron/whatever name they charter under merely has to pay hire thirty days in advance to the owner to become the Disponent Owner and it is not their problem as to the wages of the ratings and cooks. (Unless the International Transport Workers - if they still exist - get the ships boycotted but on this I am out of touch these days.

 

"Tramp" tonnage as chartered by Mezeron is just for hire as and when for what it can get and to be viable it has for decades been normal to employ crew from poorer countries and the reason why the British flag and other Western flags have long since dropped out of the "for charter" market.

 

Whatever you charter in will have low paid crew in the main.

 

Mezeron's one commitment is to pay the charter hire of its ships and it will have the right to redeliver them at the end of the charter, possibly extend or if pulling out re-charter those ships on its own account.

 

The Steamies invested many millions. Mezeron invests 30 days hire at a time for the ships it operates.

[When Skies Are Grey]

Learn to quote dude!

[Tugger]

The spirit of the User Agreement also gives security to the Steam Packet so that it can enter into the expensive business of investing in vessels, as required by the Agreement. Likewise, the Government have the security that there is shipping company tied into providing the vessels and the passenger services the Government wants. The letter of the Agreement may not have included Lift on Lift off but I believe that that is where the Government come in. They signed the Agreement with the Steam Packet, both sides making the commitment that gives us our lifeline. They should hold their nerve and agree that the spirit of the Agreement is more important than the letter.

 

No, they should not. The spirit of the agreement is not more important than the letter. If it was "spirit" they were after they could have done it on a handshake. In order to comply with what you see as the "spirit" of the agreement the government would have to step in and actively prevent a commercial enterprise doing something that it is completely at liberty to do today. I do not want this government turning round and deciding that businesses that are entirely legitimate one day should be closed down the next, certainly not to protect the spurious benefits afforded to us by the User Agreement.

 

The issue is as simple as this: freight customers have been gouged by the Steam Packet in order to meet the debt repayments made by its owners. That situation is not going to continue because freight owners now have an alternative. There will continue to be a market for mixed freight and passenger traffic from the island to Ireland and the UK, but it will not be as profitable for the Steam Packet, or whoever else we end up with. The people who bought the Steam Packet need to take this one on the chin, I'm afraid: the alternative is that we will, and I do not find it acceptable that the Manx public should pay the cost of a poor investment decision by professional investors.

[spook]

Monopolies are wrong. The present car and passenger ferry is a monopoly. It’s a nut that could and should be cracked, it’s a nut of our governments creation, and it’s past time they cracked it.

[ITV Granada IOM]

Ken Usher, the RMT organiser for the Isle of Man Steampacket, talks to Granada about the ongoing dispute

 

http://www.manxtube.com/video/2480/Steampacket-demo

[WTF]

The spirit of the User Agreement also gives security to the Steam Packet so that it can enter into the expensive business of investing in vessels, as required by the Agreement. Likewise, the Government have the security that there is shipping company tied into providing the vessels and the passenger services the Government wants. The letter of the Agreement may not have included Lift on Lift off but I believe that that is where the Government come in. They signed the Agreement with the Steam Packet, both sides making the commitment that gives us our lifeline. They should hold their nerve and agree that the spirit of the Agreement is more important than the letter.

 

No, they should not. The spirit of the agreement is not more important than the letter. If it was "spirit" they were after they could have done it on a handshake. In order to comply with what you see as the "spirit" of the agreement the government would have to step in and actively prevent a commercial enterprise doing something that it is completely at liberty to do today. I do not want this government turning round and deciding that businesses that are entirely legitimate one day should be closed down the next, certainly not to protect the spurious benefits afforded to us by the User Agreement.

 

The issue is as simple as this: freight customers have been gouged by the Steam Packet in order to meet the debt repayments made by its owners. That situation is not going to continue because freight owners now have an alternative. There will continue to be a market for mixed freight and passenger traffic from the island to Ireland and the UK, but it will not be as profitable for the Steam Packet, or whoever else we end up with. The people who bought the Steam Packet need to take this one on the chin, I'm afraid: the alternative is that we will, and I do not find it acceptable that the Manx public should pay the cost of a poor investment decision by professional investors.

 

 

the linkspan agreement basically protected passenger traffic and their vehicles, NOT freight, freight has been coming into ramsey for years with messyron and the racket don't appear to have done much wimpering about it. suddenly dock in douglas and it's a problem?? why?? all it saves is a 15 mile lorry journey over the mountain, assuming said boat could dock in ramsey and offload?? i would expect the spirit of the linkspan was to protect passenger services only at the time and now they want it to have meant something else.

[DRIVER]

Has anyone asked The aussies how much they want for it, before the courts take it off them ?

[Megan]

Tugger, I don't expect the Manx public to pay. I expect the Government to acknowledge that the User Agreement was drawn up to give the Steam Packet the security of freight in order to guarantee the level of passenger services we have. That document protects us from losing services that are not commercially viable on their own. Amend things via the Agreement if you want but recognise that it works two ways, it benefits the Isle of Man as well as the Steam Packet.

 

WTF, yes, the User Agreement was drawn up to protect passenger services - by giving the security of the freight traffic to the Steam Packet. Otherwise, again, non-commercially viable services just wouldn't happen. The freight doesn't need protecting - as Mezeron has shown, it is commercially viable alone. Add in passengers and it becomes a whole different ball game. No one would run the passenger services we currently have on a stand alone basis.

[b4mbi]

 

The issue is as simple as this: freight customers have been gouged by the Steam Packet in order to meet the debt repayments made by its owners. That situation is not going to continue because freight owners now have an alternative. There will continue to be a market for mixed freight and passenger traffic from the island to Ireland and the UK, but it will not be as profitable for the Steam Packet, or whoever else we end up with. The people who bought the Steam Packet need to take this one on the chin, I'm afraid: the alternative is that we will, and I do not find it acceptable that the Manx public should pay the cost of a poor investment decision by professional investors.

 

 

Nail, head, hit.

 

I hope the IOMG had the foresight to write a clause about strike action into the User Agreement

 

i.e. that should IOMSPC employees strike, then the exclusivity of the UA to use the linkspan falls away...... here's hoping, otherwise potentially disruption to car traffic on ferry...

 

"spirit of the agreement" talk is just nonsense.

 

If they had intended to make it blanket coverage for all types of frieght then that's what should have been written into the agreement.

 

It appears the IOMSPC management, owners and bankers have ALL overlooked this aspect and therefore the blame lays solely at their collective doors for signing the UA which they erroneously thought gave them exclusivity. This is where the IOMSPC employees should be directing their anger as they've been sold up the Mersey by their owners and management.

[Tempus Fugit]

do Government need a backup plan

[b4mbi]

Megan, who is telling you running passenger only services are not commercially viable????

 

The IOMSPC are because it doesn't generate enough through them alone to support their flawed debt financed business model.

 

Maybe a totally different story with other operators who are not restricted in their scheduling and do not have such a heavy debt burden to finance...

[Non-Believer]

Tempus Fugit, it hasn't got any engines... (Mind, neither have the SP boats half the time)....We could always get Ann Reynolds to run the top deck at a £2m pa loss as well........

[manxman8180]

Megan, who is telling you running passenger only services are not commercially viable????

 

The IOMSPC are because it doesn't generate enough through them alone to support their flawed debt financed business model.

 

In fairness, they say that some of the services are not viable (i.e. the ones with lower demand / load). Anyone who has travelled on certain sailings would be hard pushed to disagree, even without knowing the full costs / facts etc. There is certainly money to be made on operating a passenger service, but it would likely involve fewer sailings and a conventional, cheap to run vessel. Which means the travelling public loses a great deal of choice and convenience.

 

And, I think i may have siad this before, but freight rates have been extortionate for many, many years. Well before the company had the fairly recent 'debt burden' incurred following the sale from Sea Containers.

 

Finally, anyone is free to start up a passenger operation out of Douglas at any time. Just get yourself a side loading vessel and away you go.