notwell Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 No, what they are saying is that this person was released EARLY. I agree you cannot keep someone longer than their sentence. The key thing is to get the sentencing right in the first place. This guy was given 10 years. I think that's a reasonable sentence but it looks very very light when you reduce it to 5 for "good" behaviour. It's a concern that in 5 years time this dickhead will be let out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhumsaa Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 No I totally understand that he was released early from his sentence - but the suggestion from others is that if only he'd have spent a bit more time in jail then all this wouldn't have happened because he'd be rehabilitated to not commit the offences previously listed despite them being totally different from his previous crime. It's a flawed logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notwell Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 It's a tough one. I think where people are put away for very serious crimes (which he was) then they shouldn't be getting out early anyway. And some people are just fucking bad people. He's clearly one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceaseless Change Posted July 13, 2015 Author Share Posted July 13, 2015 No I totally understand that he was released early from his sentence - but the suggestion from others is that if only he'd have spent a bit more time in jail then all this wouldn't have happened because he'd be rehabilitated to not commit the offences previously listed despite them being totally different from his previous crime. It's a flawed logic. They aren't totally different from his entire criminal history, just his most recent crime. And the inquiry is looking at not just why he was released early, but whether the attempts to rehabilitate him in general were appropriate - which surely they cannot have been. As for the idea that criminals should stay in jail until rehabilitated - the UK has that exact sentence for some very serious crimes, in effect. But the point isn't whether you should keep someone jailed indefinitely - the point is that by the time they are released they have been rehabilitated as far as possible.... Does anyone think the Island has the worlds best rehabilitation system?! The last Prison inspection report in to the issue was scathing, to put it mildly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notwell Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 The UK isn't much better. The people who are kept in until they are rehabilited (and it is proven) are serving time for very very serious crimes and are classed as a danger to society. The bloke in question here does not fall into that category. Had he been sat in a UK prison he'd have been in no different a position. Do we have the worlds best rehabiliation system? No. Do we have a very high and serious level of criminal sat in prison? No. The primary function of prison is to punish, not rehabilitate. In a utopian world of course all prisoners would leave and never return. The truth is that if you place someone back into the same environment they came from then they are highly likely to fall back into that way of life. Of course there are the exceptions to that rule. Some people are just bad people. They can work the system to appear rehabilited too. Prison isn't a big enough deterrent in most cases for those types of people. I'm not sure what any report is going to find other than it'll cost a lot of money and the end conclusion will be that he did his time (or the part he needed to) and he was released. I expect the people at prison know they are releasing bad eggs back into society but they are powerless to stop it. Just as the judge is powerless to hand out more than a certain level of sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebees Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 And some people are just fucking bad people. He's clearly one of them. I don't agree. He sounds like a scared little boy with no sense of responsibility, at all. He just needs to grow up, that's probably the right mantra to use for 98% of the prison population. Poor kid, his life is ruined, not only has he gone to prison (again) but he has to live with having killed someone for the rest of his days. I wonder what his life was like before he first went to prison? The majority of my 'jail friends' had shitty lives, shitty parents and shitty schooling, it is cruel to say they're pointless people but...I cannot actually think of any reason for them to be alive (unless you count 'keeping prison guards in a job' as a life skill). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 I'm sure that Deemsters/Judges are fully aware of the tariff discount system, if they sentence someone to ten years, they know full well that they could be out in five with good behaviour and that they consider this to be an adequate term and reward for the crime and their conduct in prison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stinking enigma Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Yeah, well the judges are unlikely to have these people moving in next door to them when they get released are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhumsaa Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 The primary function of prison is to punish, not rehabilitate. This is the crux of the matter. Is the Isle of Man choosing to punish or rehabilitate criminals as a priority, if we choose to punish we can't then retrospectively judge efficiency based on rehabilitation criteria or vice versa. It's a policy decision first and then implementation not have your cake and eat it time based on past events and political agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thommo2010 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 And some people are just fucking bad people. He's clearly one of them. I don't agree. He sounds like a scared little boy with no sense of responsibility, at all. He just needs to grow up, that's probably the right mantra to use for 98% of the prison population. Poor kid, his life is ruined, not only has he gone to prison (again) but he has to live with having killed someone for the rest of his days. I wonder what his life was like before he first went to prison? The majority of my 'jail friends' had shitty lives, shitty parents and shitty schooling, it is cruel to say they're pointless people but...I cannot actually think of any reason for them to be alive (unless you count 'keeping prison guards in a job' as a life skill). A scared little boy? He is in his 20s. His siblings turned out fine and they had the same upbringing. People go through shit in their lives. the only person responsible for his actions is the guy himself. No wonder people don't take responsibility for their actions these days everyone seems to be out to try and make excuses for them and put the blame on someone or something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notwell Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 The primary function of prison is to punish, not rehabilitate. This is the crux of the matter. Is the Isle of Man choosing to punish or rehabilitate criminals as a priority, if we choose to punish we can't then retrospectively judge efficiency based on rehabilitation criteria or vice versa. It's a policy decision first and then implementation not have your cake and eat it time based on past events and political agenda. Exactly. In the Isle of Man we have, generally, low level criminals in prison. I'm not fully aware of the statistics of who is inside at the moment but i'd hazard a guess we have a majority of people in there for minor or persistant minor drug offences, large drug hauls, the odd fraudster or finance related crime and the usual random drunkeness habitually and or violence linked. Most of these people need harsh punishment. So that it is deters a trip to prison and they are motivated to avoid ever going back inside. I personally would like to see the prison run in military manner whereby inmates are subject to what amounts to New Entrant Training level in the Forces. They regularly decontstruct people and build them into what they want them to be, giving them standards and disipline and some self worth. Having been through that process (Forces, not prison!) I genuinely believe it could make a difference to a number of people who enter that prison. Rather than sitting in a nice cell will all the nice to have things available and it being a borderline holiday for some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Do soldiers not commit criminal offenses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stinking enigma Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 The forces prepares people for prison life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulgarian Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 The primary function of prison is to punish, not rehabilitate. This is the crux of the matter. Is the Isle of Man choosing to punish or rehabilitate criminals as a priority, if we choose to punish we can't then retrospectively judge efficiency based on rehabilitation criteria or vice versa. It's a policy decision first and then implementation not have your cake and eat it time based on past events and political agenda. Exactly. In the Isle of Man we have, generally, low level criminals in prison. I'm not fully aware of the statistics of who is inside at the moment but i'd hazard a guess we have a majority of people in there for minor or persistant minor drug offences, large drug hauls, the odd fraudster or finance related crime and the usual random drunkeness habitually and or violence linked. Most of these people need harsh punishment. So that it is deters a trip to prison and they are motivated to avoid ever going back inside. I personally would like to see the prison run in military manner whereby inmates are subject to what amounts to New Entrant Training level in the Forces. They regularly decontstruct people and build them into what they want them to be, giving them standards and disipline and some self worth. Having been through that process (Forces, not prison!) I genuinely believe it could make a difference to a number of people who enter that prison. Rather than sitting in a nice cell will all the nice to have things available and it being a borderline holiday for some. Harsher punishment does nobody any favours. Incarceration is punishment enough. Further sanctions to not lead to lower rates of re-offending. In fact, some studies have shown that they increases it. Google 'punishment and recidivism'. The ideal outcome for those who have been to prison is that they use the time to think about their life, gain some new knowledge or skills, address whatever problems led to them offending, and come out in a better position that they were in before. This clearly is not happening. I don't think training people to be soldiers is going to help them much in civilian life. The transition from one to the other is a recognised problem for those leaving the armed forces. You are probably right about many people being in prison due to repeated minor drugs offences. Turning minor dealers into criminals with worse problems than when they went into prison seems to be a speciality of the criminal justice system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notwell Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I'm not suggesting we train people as soldiers. What I am saying is that the basic level of Forces training (that first 8-10 weeks) is designed to instill certain change in that person which leads to them being more disciplined, take pride in themselves and what they do, and it gives a platform to embed skills. Those first 8-10 weeks, from experience, change you. For the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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