Albert Tatlock Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 11 minutes ago, Chinahand said: It isn't guaranteed in an infinite universe. An infinite universe made of concrete will behave differently from an infinite universe containing nothing but a feather etc etc etc and infinite times. Sorry you're plain wrong. Any of these things are possible in an infinite universe, infinite as our universe or even a concrete one. The chances of it in human terms might be small...say 1 in 10−10^28 but it is not zero. In quantum terms, particles we see in our universe or even those forming a concrete universe, any object could form...even a complete human or a boltzman brain. Infinite means it's all highly unlikely but guaranteed. As clever as you think you might be China...you need to revisit this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 Your saying an infinite universe containing a fly is guaranteed to spawn the Star Wars universe? That isn’t so. That is all I am saying and am on pretty firm ground that it won’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 6 minutes ago, Chinahand said: Your saying an infinite universe containing a fly is guaranteed to spawn the Star Wars universe? That isn’t so. That is all I am saying and am on pretty firm ground that it won’t. If it can contain a fly it contains all kinds of forces and space and a quantum soup. So yes...it could spawn the star wars universe as well as ours and even your concrete one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbie Bobster Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 Sound of explosions in space ain't going to happen no matter how many infinite universes you specify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Bobbie Bobster said: Sound of explosions in space ain't going to happen no matter how many infinite universes you specify. Depends on the initial conditions of that universe. Physics will be infinitely different too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 I've just been. I really wanted it to be great, but it just wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 It was ok. If you disconnected it from a sentence uttered in a canteena a long time in a galaxy far far away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Albert Tatlock said: Depends on the initial conditions of that universe. Physics will be infinitely different too. So now you admit it depends upon the initial conditions and so can’t be guaranteed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 7 hours ago, Chinahand said: So now you admit it depends upon the initial conditions and so can’t be guaranteed. You really need to read up on this. In an infinite number of infinite universes all initial conditions will be guaranteed to occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Sigh, Albert you are moving the goal posts. Initially you said: "An infinite universe guarantees it's inevitable." I simply pointed out that the property of being infinite does not guarantee anything can happen - the set of countable numbers is infinite, but it doesn't contain a single letter. Anything is simply not "guaranteed to be inevitable" inside an infinite space, even in an infinite time. It depends what is inside the infinite space. Now you are talking about "an infinite number of infinite universes" - that is a very different proposition from the one you started with. But sadly you are still wrong. And it was actually VinnieK* who pointed this out to you all of 9 years ago: On 9/6/2009 at 2:29 PM, VinnieK said: It's also a bit of a fallacy that infinite possibilities = all outcomes occur in at least one universe. You can have an infinite system of outcomes in which an infinite number of outcomes are excluded, because infinity is a tricky thing that refers only to size rather than the content of what's being measured. By way of example, consider a sequence of positive numbers being generated by a machine. If you have an infinite number of universes then it's reasonable to imagine that across the entire system there's an infinite number of different numbers being output at a given time, but in no universe will that machine be producing a fraction or an imaginary number at that point. In fact, we can make a much stronger statement about this: say that our machine is no longer operating under any restriction on what number it produces at a given point (i.e. negative numbers, fractions, et al are also permitted). It is still impossible that every number will appear across the system of different universes at any given point. The reason for this is the set of all numbers is substantially bigger than the set of all positive whole numbers, even though both are infinite. The number of all universes (and hence these machines) will be the same size at the set of all positive whole numbers (since you can label them 1, 2, 3, and so on), but the set of numbers is much bigger, so there will always be (an infinite amount) of numbers that aren't being output at any given point in time. Think about the Hilbert Hotel and the difference between countable and uncountable infinities. You can have an infinite number of universes all with different initial conditions/laws of nature and still not have the correct initial conditions to get what you want to happen happen. Think about it this way - in the first universe the G, the universal constant of gravitation, is 1, in the second it is 2, in the third it is 3. You will get an infinite number of universes doing this, but in none will it equal 96.67408 × 10-11. That is a trivial example, but with countable, uncountable and even larger infinities you are not guaranteed to capture all the possibilities if you select a single infinite universe, or even an infinite number of infinite universes, such sets can consist of infinitesimal proportions of the whole set space and so you are categorically not guaranteed to have included the conditions you wanted. Plus all of this is totally moot, as for all we know the physics of the multiverse mean only a certain set of conditions is possible with any universe without these conditions simply never existing in the first place. There is no guarantee the multiverse is infinite - it could just as well be unbounded, but finite, just so so big we with our limited horizons think its infinite. *Thanks for the heads up Vinnie ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 I disagree. You're just playing with sets to suit your own argument. Let's leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Fine, but that’s a bit of a kop out. Do you seriously believe if the universe is infinite it is guaranteed Darth Vader is real? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 29 minutes ago, Chinahand said: Fine, but that’s a bit of a kop out. Do you seriously believe if the universe is infinite it is guaranteed Darth Vader is real? That should say Darth Vader was real. It happened a long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 I’m sure Albert will say it’s happening all the time with an infinite number of Darth Vaders battling an infinite number of Obi Wans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 Well he's clearly wrong. There was only ever one Darth Vader. Argument over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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