[BBC News] TT victims 'in restricted area'

[Max Power]

A lot of armchair criticism of the TT and the organisers as usual.

 

Spare some thought for ALL of those affected by this. All of them TT fans who support the TT and despise the self righteous pontifications of disinterested tossers.

 

The scene WAS manageable, there was no delay in getting people across the road or treated, the organisers behaved appropriately in view of the circumstances.

 

If you KNOW otherwise I'd be interested to hear it!

 

A self righteous pontificating tosser here. Having read and contributed a lot and read the thread there does not appear to be a lot of specific critisism of the TT or organisors. But I can and will if required as many of the previous organisors are friends of mine. They are aware of my views and we agree to disagree. It does not mean we do not discuss in a mature matter.

 

Generally this thread has been a mature discussion on generalisations. On your specific point on whether the scene was manageable and if everybody behaved appropriately it is not my place to decide. I do not know who you are but it may not be yours either. Rather it down to the current inquest to make that call. I am happy to leave it to them as they have all the evidence. You apparently believe you will know better.

 

Two points have been made on this thread one by me in the main and that is if an area is deemed to be such that it should be marked as restricted then it should be so marked. That has not happened in the past due to whatever reason, some of them being the laws of the IoM as they stand. The second is that in the event of a serious accident we may appear to slow to stop the race.

 

You may disagree on those general points as a TT enthusiast. But I would suggest to the average man in the street if you asked him a) in the event of a serious accident invoving possible death should the race be stopped and then restarted and b) should all higher risks areas be marked as such irrespective of the landowners wishes the answers would be yes. If you want the TT to survive it is those guys you need to keep on side and not the TT and Motor racing enthusiasts as you are preaching to the converted.

 

If you want to ignore those views and say anybody who may disagree is a tosser and argue that everybody knows the risks then fine but that is the attitude that will see the TT closed for good.

 

The outcome of the inquest that is going on now is potentially extremely serious. If it is found that the individuals were in a restricted area and if it is found the required signage was not in place then somebody will probably get sued by the families of those involved. That will probably be the organisors of the event as they are carrying Insurance but insurance companies are not slow to try and escape paying out. Is it possible that if there was a failure at any level or point to follow procedures then the insurance company would say that cover was void. In that case would liability fall back on the IoM Government, various individuals or the organisors.

 

I do not know, but I do have enourmous sympathy for all those involved, the marshalls, the specators and the families. I barely spare a thought though for the TT enthusiasts as all they seem to care about is their beloved TT and their attitude seems to be you are either with us or against us. Well take that attitude and the TT will die as you need to keep as many on side as you can if the TT is to continue.

 

Probably best if you debate and speculate really. I won't add to what I said but I would reiterate it. And point out that the race was run, the competitors following were on their final lap and were respectful of the situation causing no problems at the scene of the accident.

It's difficult to manage a situation like that and react in a manner which satisfies people who have hindsight on their side.

[macks]

I can't see where hindsight comes in.Who cares if they were on there final lap or if they were John Mc guiness on his 130 mph lap 3 people lay dead and 2 others were fighting for their lives.As soon as medical professionals were on the scene race control must have known the gravity of the situation.The race should have been stopped, red flags could have been put out at the hairpin and competitors stopped there.You seem more concerned by the fact that the race was run.Your sense of priorities seems very strange , you must realise that inccidents like this and i'm afraid blinkered attitudes like yours will be the final nails in the coffin of the TT.

I'm not trying to be clever with hindsight and i don't seek any kind of satisfaction,i wonder what you seek with your slanted view of the situation? (Thats max power in case it isn't clear)

[WTF]

the politics of the situation will dictate an end result that doesn't affect the only decent tourist magnet no matter what happened. the deemster will slag every one off ( so it looks like the powers that be are chastising ) and drivel on about lessons learned blah blah blah etc.....till the next time when another pantomime will be performed.

[Max Power]

I can't see where hindsight comes in.Who cares if they were on there final lap or if they were John Mc guiness on his 130 mph lap 3 people lay dead and 2 others were fighting for their lives.As soon as medical professionals were on the scene race control must have known the gravity of the situation.The race should have been stopped, red flags could have been put out at the hairpin and competitors stopped there.You seem more concerned by the fact that the race was run.Your sense of priorities seems very strange , you must realise that inccidents like this and i'm afraid blinkered attitudes like yours will be the final nails in the coffin of the TT.

I'm not trying to be clever with hindsight and i don't seek any kind of satisfaction,i wonder what you seek with your slanted view of the situation? (Thats max power in case it isn't clear)

 

I wouldn't say my view was blinkered at all. I don't seek anything other than to put a realistic perspective on the debate. I never said at any time that I was more concerned that the race was run. Stopping the last few riders going through would not have served any meaningful purpose and tied up resources which were dealing with the situation. You'll have to take my word that there was no hinderance caused in the follow up to the accident.

 

Hindsight comes in when we are able to discuss this with the benefit and luxury of analysis after the event. That was not available at the time.

[Lost Login]

Probably best if you debate and speculate really. I won't add to what I said but I would reiterate it. And point out that the race was run, the competitors following were on their final lap and were respectful of the situation causing no problems at the scene of the accident.

It's difficult to manage a situation like that and react in a manner which satisfies people who have hindsight on their side.

 

Generally I think in this topic their has been a lot more debate than speculation. Indeed I am surprised that a lot more speculation and heresay has not been introduced.

 

Ultimately what is done is done and I believe there were failures in the system. I will not speculate if they exasperated the problem but from the evidence presented to the inquiry, some of which is contradictory it does appear there was a lack of clarity on certain matters. That can not be undone but if the TT is to survive then it must be learnt from. They must sort out where are the restricted areas, how they are signed, checked, reviewed etc etc so if such an incident happens again, and hopefully it will not, then next time none of the issues of uncertainty arise like they appear to happen this time,

 

Equally with regard to stopping races I believe that must happen more readily. I accept your statement that "the competitors following were on their final lap and were respectful of the situation causing no problems at the scene of the accident" but equally important to the future of the TT is the view of the outside world. My view is that in generally, and as evidenced in some of the Manx forums threads, non TT and Motor Racing fans expect that such an incident would cause a race to be stopped. If the TT is to survive then you need those individuals on side not alienated. If all that happens is we shrug our shoulders and say it is what the racers and spectators would have wanted and they knew the risks they you risk alienating the neutrals.

 

I think in this thread I have been very neutral although I have been appalled by what I have heard at times over the years from marshalls to members of the MMMC. I have not repeated what I have heard. I will admit though that I do believe the TT is an anachronism in the modern world as it is my belief the bikes and speeds etc these days are not suitable for road racing. This was not always the case and you look back at od films and you understand how the TT began and developed as in those days speeds were suitable for the course.

 

Finally please note how I state that it is in my opinion or my belief as I admit and accept I may be wrong. Equally I would occasionally like to see other posters with opposite points of view realise that what they post is their beliefs and opinions and they are not necessarily the definitive facts. Forgive me for using this as an example but in writing "the competitors following were on their final lap and were respectful of the situation causing no problems at the scene of the accident" you are stating this as definitive fact. Somebody else may have a contrary opinion. In either case ot is purely a personal opinion and not a definitive fact just because somebody has that belief.

[WTF]

This was not always the case and you look back at od films and you understand how the TT began and developed as in those days speeds were suitable for the course.

 

the course used to be a dirt track road, with the clothing etc available even then the fast was too fast. road racing in general is becoming too quick/fast and therefore dangerous. the actual top speed of the machinery has not gone up too much, it is the accelleration and suspension and tyres that have allowed the faster laps along with course changes. puropose built short circuits with no obstacles and gravel traps are probably as 'safe' as you can get, anything less is by design more risky and dangerous. i guess that barry sheen saw the dangers in the TT course long before anybody else wanted to. whizzing round the roads is fine until something goes wrong, and the going wrong bit is the problem.

[keyboarder]

Newsbot seems to have lost interest in the inquest so From MR again

 

A father and mother have been describing how their son died in their arms after an incident during last year’s Senior TT race.

 

Dean Jacob of Kidderminster was watching the race with his parents, Adrian and Christine Jacob, on June 8 at the 26th Milestone.

 

TT newcomer Marc Ramsbotham lost control of his bike and plunged into the crowd at around 100 miles an hour.

 

At an inquest in Douglas today, his father recalled his son’s final moments.

 

Jason Roberts reports (text, below, from attached audio file):

 

In a statement read out by Coroner of Inquests Michael Moyle, Mr Jacobs said spectators dived for cover as the bike came up an embankment towards them, breaking into pieces.

 

When he got up, Dean was lying under a bush and said 'It’s hit me, it’s hit me'.

 

Mr Jacobs gave his son mouth to mouth resuscitation and heart massage, but couldn’t save him.

 

A doctor pronounced the 33 year old dead at the scene.

 

Mr Moyle is expected to give a verdict on his death, along with those for Mr Ramsbotham and another spectator, 52 year old Gregory Kenzig from Australia, next week.

 

 

 

And also

 

Coroner Michael Moyle has warned his report may contain unhappy reading for some, after hearing evidence in a triple inquest this week.

 

Speaking yesterday as the evidence ended, he said he hoped to deliver verdicts on Wednesday or Thursday.

 

But after a three-day hearing, he hinted his report may criticise some of those involved in the incident during last year’s Senior TT race.

 

Spectators Dean Adrian Jacob of Kidderminster and Gregory John Kenzig from Australia died, as well as TT rider Marc Ramsbotham, from Norfolk.

 

Mr Moyle heard evidence from Manx Motorcycle Club organisers, TT marshals, the Autocycle Union and Director of Highways Bruce Hannay.

 

At the centre of the case was whether the spectators were in a prohibited area and whether that part of the course had been clearly signed as off-limits.

 

Mr Moyle described the case as tragic, and offered his condolences to the families of the victims, as well as giving his best wishes to two marshals who were injured in the incident.

 

But he warned that when he delivers his verdicts next week, some of the parties who gave evidence may not find it happy reading.

 

The first report is, I think, particularly disturbing, making the affair far less anonymous than hitherto.

[WTF]

The first report is, I think, particularly disturbing, making the affair far less anonymous than hitherto.

 

 

it was never anonymous for those directly affected. just because you may not have known anybody involved doesn't make it less of a tragedy.

[keyboarder]

it was never anonymous for those directly affected. just because you may not have known anybody involved doesn't make it less of a tragedy.

 

I agree with you and apologise for my poor choice of words. What I meant was that the report somewhat personalised the incident rather than it just being yet another cold statistic. Bringing the reality closer to home if you like. It seems to me that although the annual carnage of motorbike racing on the island (and let's be clear about this - barely a year goes by without at least one fatality) is being perpetrated on our behalf for the sake of financial profit, the majority of Manx people are actually in denial about what this actually means. I have lost count of the number of times local people have brushed bad crashes under the carpet with a flippant remark along the lines of " They know the risks - it's their decision". This from pro TTer's and the indifferent alike. I suspect if the majority of these had to actually deal with an incident, or even just witness one, attitudes would immediately change. It's a little like the difference between blowing someone's head off in a computer game and doing the same to an actual person.

[Frances]

(and let's be clear about this - barely a year goes by without at least one fatality)

I think you will find the fatality rate nearer 1% of competitors - averages about 2.5 deaths/TT for competitors - serious accidents I suspect must be very similar or higher

[Skeddan]

1% is huge. I can't think of many sports that would even approach this - crocodile wrestling maybe one of them.

 

Spectator casualties and fatalities is even more telling. You don't risk getting killed as a spectator in a boxing match, or even a croc wrestling contest. It seems a bit like air shows which have had their share of accidents.

 

It's too easy to be an armchair critic over this, but from what I'm reading there are questions over safety practices (long experience does not mean that everything has been managed as it ideally ought to be). If one was staging the same as a feature film, with extras as spectators etc. one would have rigorous safety standards which would leave nothing to chance or permit anything but stringent adherence. It's not meant to cast blame with hindsight - but rather that the root and branch review hopefully will bring in a rethink over how safety is managed - so the event can continue, but not pose a danger to the lives of spectators and members of the public.

[Newsbot]

The wife of a rider killed with two others at the TT races says she hopes the inquest conclusion will help her family move on.

 

Source : http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/world/...man/7299491.stm

[Max Power]

it was never anonymous for those directly affected. just because you may not have known anybody involved doesn't make it less of a tragedy.

 

I agree with you and apologise for my poor choice of words. What I meant was that the report somewhat personalised the incident rather than it just being yet another cold statistic. Bringing the reality closer to home if you like. It seems to me that although the annual carnage of motorbike racing on the island (and let's be clear about this - barely a year goes by without at least one fatality) is being perpetrated on our behalf for the sake of financial profit, the majority of Manx people are actually in denial about what this actually means. I have lost count of the number of times local people have brushed bad crashes under the carpet with a flippant remark along the lines of " They know the risks - it's their decision". This from pro TTer's and the indifferent alike. I suspect if the majority of these had to actually deal with an incident, or even just witness one, attitudes would immediately change. It's a little like the difference between blowing someone's head off in a computer game and doing the same to an actual person.

 

This is difficult, I have ridden the TT and MGP, had a few serious accidents on this circuit, lost many friends through racing accidents and was invoved in the immediate aftermath of this accident. I still can't come to terms with the fact that people think you are heartless or looking at things through a financial perspective. I'd be a wealthier healthier person if it were not for the TT, but I certainly wouldn't want it to die or become some neutered shadow of itself.

 

I know it's hard to argue against the facts and the statistics, but sometimes you have to ask why do people do it and why do people want to watch it? Does anyone have the right to stop people doing it because they can't understand? We are not mentally ill and have human emotions just like anyone else. It's the fact that it actually makes life seem more full and invigorating I think that makes people risk everything, but that's just a personal view.

 

I think it is far more dangerous to ride on open roads than to race on the mountain circuit.

[Frances]

I think it is far more dangerous to ride on open roads than to race on the mountain circuit.

Rough back of envelope calculations

say each TT rider does 25 or so laps on closed roads - allow 1000miles at 1% fatality rate = 100kmiles/fatality.

 

allow each Manx driver to do 10,000 miles/year with about 20,000 drivers (my estimate) - about 12 deaths/year - 200M miles/year - about 15M miles/fatality

 

I think about 50% of deaths are are motorcyclists, which the UK reckons are 40 times more likely to have an accident than cars, thus about 500 serious motorcyclists doing significant mileage would meet these stats - 5Mmiles = 5 deaths = about 1Mmiles/fatality for motorcyclists - ie about 10% of your racing rate

 

Obviously very approximate figures - please adjust based on your own esrtimates of mileage + numbers but I'd be surprised if your statement is anywhere near correct

[Lost Login]

I know it's hard to argue against the facts and the statistics, but sometimes you have to ask why do people do it and why do people want to watch it? Does anyone have the right to stop people doing it because they can't understand? We are not mentally ill and have human emotions just like anyone else. It's the fact that it actually makes life seem more full and invigorating I think that makes people risk everything, but that's just a personal view.

 

I think it is wrong to say that those who are not supporters of the TT do not understand why those who race & take part in it enjoy it. Most of us have some form of hobby, especially sport, that we really enjoy and appreciate the enjoyment that it brings. We understand those who enter the TT may well get a great level of enjoyment out of the event & despite the even though it is not a sport or an event we especially appreciate.

 

You may not like Rugby or Football but you can probably relate to the emotions of a Welsh rugby fan after they won the grand slam on Saturday or a Liverpool fan after they won the European Cup from the level of excitement you got from winning a motor race at whatever level.

 

It all comes down to your questions "Does anyone have the right to stop people doing it". You say it is because those who want it stopped can't understand I would say they or at least many do understand but they come to a different conclusion of whether the incident level is acceptable.

 

I have nothing against the TT in principle although I am not a Motor Racing fan. I am perefectly happy for it to contiune if it could be made to be in my opinion "safe". Safe does does mean that there will never be a serious accident but they would be at a level which makes the running of such an event acceptable. The current supporters believe that the we are currently at that situation, I do not. I presume there would be a point where you would believe the level of incidents is not acceptable, although this is probably a hypothetical figure as it is never likely to reach that level. Equally I do not believe that the level of incidents on the course can be reduced to a level that would make the running of the TT acceptable.

 

You can not say that either opinion is right purely which prevails. It is my belief that at some point the TT will cease due to one of a number of reasons it may be in ten years time, it may be in 50 years time but times move on and as a society we do not allow "events" that were at one point deemed acceptable. Events that it could be argue should be allowed to continue as the participants enjoy them and know the risks. As extreme examples I could mention duelling, bare knucle fighting.

 

I would not bracket the TT with those but off the top of my head I can only think of one other organised sporting event, not sport, where death and very serious injury are taken as read as part of that event. Yes deaths occur in many sports, but when they do they are generally shocking and unexpected. They might even be more deaths in several sports each year than happen at the TT. But the TT is a two week event with maybe a 100 or so participants. But in those other sports that are often quoted, Mountaineering, Horse Riding of some describtion, skiing there are hundreds of thousands taking part each week. That is rather like saying that the TT is too dangerous because aroubd the world evey week X die in motorcycle crashes.