[BBC News] TT victims 'in restricted area'

[ai_Droid]

Since Andrew asked with regard to my age if it is of any relevance I am in my 40's and yes I make subconsciously risk assessment decisions hundreds of times a day, but if I see two apparently identicle situations one with a warning sign and one without, e.g. about swimming from a beach, I judge each accordingly.

 

You need more information than what might be obvious to conduct an accurate risk assessment. If you knew fek all about motor racing, about the dynamics of cornering, about the way bikes behave, about the speed the bike travels through the turn, etc, etc. Experts are better qualified than most individuals at assessing those risks, eh?

[Lost Login]

Experts are better qualified than most individuals at assessing those risks, eh?

 

Thats my view and if they have made such assessments in my opinion it is wrong if they are withheld. E

[thebees]

IMHO they are just accidents and as we know accidents happen, noone can assess that can they? If you watch the TT (or any other racing where the motors could crash at high speed) then you know the risks and take the risks as part of loving what you are into.

[Lost Login]

IMHO they are just accidents and as we know accidents happen, noone can assess that can they? If you watch the TT (or any other racing where the motors could crash at high speed) then you know the risks and take the risks as part of loving what you are into.

 

Hang on, how can you know the risks if you can not assess them!. It is because you asess them you know what they are!

[Naighteyr]

How about if they dropped a note through the letter box of every house on the TT Course saying "Motorsport is dangerous - if you are watching the racing from your own land, please be aware that accidents do happen.". Would that make you feel better?

 

 

Isn't this what ALL other motorsport events have to do though? i.e. the rallies as I undersatnd have to inform all residents on the course, or blocked in by closures?

 

If so, then why are the TT/MGP such special cases? I'm surprised to find in reading this thread they aren't required to notify every household in the same way?

 

And you cant say the length of the course make it impractical, the courses of other motrosport events (hill climbs, rallies etc) are long and much more varied.

[thebees]

Hang on, how can you know the risks if you can not assess them!. It is because you asess them you know what they are!

 

Common sense??

[pontiuspilot]

Not for the squeamish clicky -

which shows where exactly you mean. Rider was taken to hospital with 'injuries not too serious'.

 

Compared to the incident discussed within this thread, the clip in that link is a stroll in the park. Apparently there are two video clips that exist of this one that have been presented to the inquest. I wonder if they will find their way on to youtube and if so, what will the squeamish make of them? I personally think every IOM resident should be forced to watch them.

 

listen keyboarder, your reactionary nonsense does nobody any good. just because you clearly like to sit inside your little safety bubble, it does not mean that it should be imposed on everybody else.

'motor sport is dangerous' that phrase is well known to competitor and spectator alike, if you are aware of the risk and still wish to take a particular course of action then so be it.

as mike dean said there where signs there on the evening before the race. there is no reason to imagine that they were not there the following day. the spectators must therefore have ignored them.

[Lost Login]

Hang on, how can you know the risks if you can not assess them!. It is because you asess them you know what they are!

 

Common sense??

 

"Common Sense" may decide the decision, you still have to assess to come to a decision.

[andrew]

How about if they dropped a note through the letter box of every house on the TT Course saying "Motorsport is dangerous - if you are watching the racing from your own land, please be aware that accidents do happen.". Would that make you feel better?

 

Isn't this what ALL other motorsport events have to do though? i.e. the rallies as I undersatnd have to inform all residents on the course, or blocked in by closures?

 

If so, then why are the TT/MGP such special cases? I'm surprised to find in reading this thread they aren't required to notify every household in the same way?

 

And you cant say the length of the course make it impractical, the courses of other motrosport events (hill climbs, rallies etc) are long and much more varied.

I think people on the TT Course tend to know when TT or MGP is on. Someone who lives at the back of West Baldwin may not know that there is a car rally on the following weekend......

[Naighteyr]

I think people on the TT Course tend to know when TT or MGP is on. Someone who lives at the back of West Baldwin may not know that there is a car rally on the following weekend......

 

That just displays how arrogant the organisers of the TT/MGP are - all other organisers are exepected to do the work but they can't be arsed - it should be the same for all.

 

This inquest seems to have bought up a huge lack of consistecy in many areas and this is just another example.

[Max Power]

A lot of armchair criticism of the TT and the organisers as usual.

 

Spare some thought for ALL of those affected by this. All of them TT fans who support the TT and despise the self righteous pontifications of disinterested tossers.

 

The scene WAS manageable, there was no delay in getting people across the road or treated, the organisers behaved appropriately in view of the circumstances.

 

If you KNOW otherwise I'd be interested to hear it!

[Lost Login]

A lot of armchair criticism of the TT and the organisers as usual.

 

Spare some thought for ALL of those affected by this. All of them TT fans who support the TT and despise the self righteous pontifications of disinterested tossers.

 

The scene WAS manageable, there was no delay in getting people across the road or treated, the organisers behaved appropriately in view of the circumstances.

 

If you KNOW otherwise I'd be interested to hear it!

 

A self righteous pontificating tosser here. Having read and contributed a lot and read the thread there does not appear to be a lot of specific critisism of the TT or organisors. But I can and will if required as many of the previous organisors are friends of mine. They are aware of my views and we agree to disagree. It does not mean we do not discuss in a mature matter.

 

Generally this thread has been a mature discussion on generalisations. On your specific point on whether the scene was manageable and if everybody behaved appropriately it is not my place to decide. I do not know who you are but it may not be yours either. Rather it down to the current inquest to make that call. I am happy to leave it to them as they have all the evidence. You apparently believe you will know better.

 

Two points have been made on this thread one by me in the main and that is if an area is deemed to be such that it should be marked as restricted then it should be so marked. That has not happened in the past due to whatever reason, some of them being the laws of the IoM as they stand. The second is that in the event of a serious accident we may appear to slow to stop the race.

 

You may disagree on those general points as a TT enthusiast. But I would suggest to the average man in the street if you asked him a) in the event of a serious accident invoving possible death should the race be stopped and then restarted and b) should all higher risks areas be marked as such irrespective of the landowners wishes the answers would be yes. If you want the TT to survive it is those guys you need to keep on side and not the TT and Motor racing enthusiasts as you are preaching to the converted.

 

If you want to ignore those views and say anybody who may disagree is a tosser and argue that everybody knows the risks then fine but that is the attitude that will see the TT closed for good.

 

The outcome of the inquest that is going on now is potentially extremely serious. If it is found that the individuals were in a restricted area and if it is found the required signage was not in place then somebody will probably get sued by the families of those involved. That will probably be the organisors of the event as they are carrying Insurance but insurance companies are not slow to try and escape paying out. Is it possible that if there was a failure at any level or point to follow procedures then the insurance company would say that cover was void. In that case would liability fall back on the IoM Government, various individuals or the organisors.

 

I do not know, but I do have enourmous sympathy for all those involved, the marshalls, the specators and the families. I barely spare a thought though for the TT enthusiasts as all they seem to care about is their beloved TT and their attitude seems to be you are either with us or against us. Well take that attitude and the TT will die as you need to keep as many on side as you can if the TT is to continue.

[keyboarder]

listen keyboarder, your reactionary nonsense does nobody any good. just because you clearly like to sit inside your little safety bubble, it does not mean that it should be imposed on everybody else.

'motor sport is dangerous' that phrase is well known to competitor and spectator alike, if you are aware of the risk and still wish to take a particular course of action then so be it.

 

Yeah, whatever, I'm standing by for some irrelevant stats about mountaineering now, lol...... ; )

 

as mike dean said there where signs there on the evening before the race. there is no reason to imagine that they were not there the following day.

 

NO reason? Have you actually been following the inquest?

 

the spectators must therefore have ignored them.

 

Is that a conclusion of the inquest or your speculation?

[keyboarder]

Good old MR

 

The Coroner has told a senior government official some of the evidence he gave to the TT inquest was farcical.

 

Michael Moyle had heard from Director of Highways Bruce Hannay that, prior to last year's races, he personally 'signed off' an area prohibiting spectators from the lay-by at the 26th Milestone.

 

The question of whether two fans who died when they were struck by a motorcycle there were in a 'prohibited zone' is one of the key issues being examined by Mr Moyle.

 

The inquest heard Mr Hannay took on the task of getting permission from land owners to set up some of the prohibited zones after the then organisers of the races, the Manx Motorcycle Club, said there were too many for them to deal with them all.

 

Mr Hannay said he felt he had authority to sign off the one at the 26th Milestone because he thought the land was owned by the Department of Agriculture, another government department.

 

In fact it belonged to the Water Authority and the description placed the area on the right hand side of the course, when it was actually on the left.

 

Mr Moyle said that meant that, in law, the zone had no validity.

 

Mr Hannay said there was no mistaking where the zone was, because there was only one lay-by at the 26th Milestone.

 

He was told it hardly inspired confidence in the Department of Transport, and the discussion was becoming farcical.

 

Mr Hannay also categorically denied his department was responsible for putting out 'prohibited area' signs, but this morning two DoT employees said they had been doing it for many years. In reply Mr Hannay said he hadn't been made aware of that.

 

The three people who died in the incident were spectators Dean Adrian Jacob, of Kidderminster and Gregory John Kenzig from Australia, and TT rider Marc Ramsbotham, from Norfolk.

 

The inquest has been adjourned and Mr Moyle is due to give his verdicts next week.

[localyokel]

Mr Hannay also categorically denied his department was responsible for putting out 'prohibited area' signs, but this morning two DoT employees said they had been doing it for many years. In reply Mr Hannay said he hadn't been made aware of that.

 

That quote should be framed.