[BBC News] TT victims 'in restricted area'

[WTF]

i posted months ago it was a restricted area only to have it removed by moderators. it is now looking like the rope incident at QB, it's no ones fault, there were no signs, not my job mister. in other words pass the buck around till it gets dizzy and pisses off. i do agree it was a very unlikely accident/incident though. now we will probably get the families looking for compensation as 'no one' told their relatives not to be there. it was the marshals job/duty to keep an area ( if they knew it to be restricted ) empty of people. i reckon that the higher up marshals knew it was a restricted area, hence the 'retirements'??. i wonder if the marshals there were 'aware' before the crash and did nowt, or found out immediately after?? also i wonder if the signs were there, but vanished straight after the bus left with the shocked witnesses minus cameras?? it is just another stink in the history of the TT that the wind will blow away and all will be allowed to carry on regardless with the necessary expensive arse protectors passed out to officials whose fault it wouldn't be anyway, cos it never is!!

 

Many of thise questions I believe I could provide a reasonably accurate response to but as I said in my earlier post I will wait until all the evidence has been released in the hearing.

 

We know the man slaughter charges have been droped though and probably no individual person will be found responsible. I can understand if the families want to but I have little interest in being able to point the figure. My main hope though is that we learn from the accident and that some involved take their responsibilities a lot more serioulsy and dilligently. This is not to malign all involved but their are a number from the top down who give the impression that their involvment is a nice little hobby and a good way to get close to the action. Watching the racing is primary in their thoughts.

 

The only good thing that can hopefully come out of this is that there is a root and branch review of safety, procedures etc and far from this being a "freak" accident it is an accident that can not happen again. If the correct procedures are put in place there should be no circumstances in which spectators can find themselves in a restricted area unknowingly and if they are there knowingly the appropriate action should be taken to protect their safety e.g. by yellow flags to slow the bikes, until they have been removed.

 

 

fair enough, but you could hold an organisation liable rather than an individual?? as to being able to answer questions AFTER the evidence is released, not ALL evidence is always released, so are you waiting to see what comes out incase you let slip a secret?

[Newsbot]

A marshal with five years of TT race experience was not aware an area where two spectators were killed was restricted, an inquest hears.

 

Source : http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/world/...man/7294976.stm

[WTF]

The only good thing that can hopefully come out of this is that there is a root and branch review of safety, procedures etc and far from this being a "freak" accident it is an accident that can not happen again. If the correct procedures are put in place there should be no circumstances in which spectators can find themselves in a restricted area unknowingly and if they are there knowingly the appropriate action should be taken to protect their safety e.g. by yellow flags to slow the bikes, until they have been removed.

 

anybody found in this zone will be asked to be moved and if thay do not agree then all races will be stopped, intill said person is moved from area, ie if u refuse to move u going to get arrest,

 

 

what if I am in a restricted zone that is MY property?? i'm fairly sure you cannot be forcibly removed or arrested for being on your own private property!!

[keyboarder]

Not for the squeamish clicky -

which shows where exactly you mean. Rider was taken to hospital with 'injuries not too serious'.

 

Compared to the incident discussed within this thread, the clip in that link is a stroll in the park. Apparently there are two video clips that exist of this one that have been presented to the inquest. I wonder if they will find their way on to youtube and if so, what will the squeamish make of them? I personally think every IOM resident should be forced to watch them.

[keyboarder]

Latest from MR

 

Marshals who were at the 26th Milestone when a motorcyle struck two spectators during last year's senior TT have been recounting the experience, at an inquest in Douglas.

 

James Keith McKay, from Ramsey saw the rider's head strike a post as the machine approached the embankment where he was standing.

 

He lost sight of the bike for a second, then heard a loud crash and it came over the embankment in pieces.

 

Mr McKay said the machine came towards where he was standing with two others marshals, Janice Phillips and Hilary Musson.

 

He said he was extremely fortunate not to be hit himself, but debris struck Mrs Musson and he quickly realised Ms Phillips, his partner, had been hit in the arm and knocked unconscious.

 

Referring to the two spectators who were struck by the bike, Mr McKay said somebody tried to give CPR (Cardiac Pulmonary Resuscitation) treatment to one of them, Dean Adrian Jacob, from Kidderminster.

 

The other one, Gregory John Kenzig, from Australia, had very serious injuries, beyond what could be dealt with by first aid treatment.

 

Mr McKay said the road was covered in debris and fluid, but the race wasn't stopped.

 

Indeed, when the helicopter touched down at the nearest suitable location, across the road, people had to wait until the coast was clear before taking the casualties across, by stretcher.

Mr McKay said he had been marshaling at the 26th Milestone for four or five years and had never seen a 'Prohibited area' sign.

 

He said he didn't know it was a 'Prohibited area' for spectators, as was discussed at the inquest yesterday, and as far as he was concerned it was a safe place for spectators to watch the races.

 

Mr Jacob and Mr Kenzig, and the rider, Marc Ramsbotham from Norfolk, all died in the incident.

 

The inquest continues.

 

 

One couldn't make this stuff up. It's a little like a Laurel and Hardy script other than the deadly seriousness of the reality. Does the failure to stop the race show just how cheaply we regard life to be on the island, particularly in the area of motorbike racing?

[Lost Login]

fair enough, but you could hold an organisation liable rather than an individual?? as to being able to answer questions AFTER the evidence is released, not ALL evidence is always released, so are you waiting to see what comes out incase you let slip a secret?

 

I think the "organisation" will be held liable to an extent in that I would expect that the families would or will sue for damages.

 

As for secrets I have non to let slip as far as I know. Like many who know people who were there or people that were involved I am sure we have all been told "stuff", What I have heard is not from individuals who by experience pass on idle gossip and much matches what is coming out in the court.

 

I merely meant lets wait for the inquest to close and let the evidence come out rather than speculate on what happend, who did what, who was standing where, were signs up or not etc based on what we have all heard. After that it is fair enough to comment on specifics but prior to that I think it is a matter of discussing general points of principal

[Twitch]

I wasn't aware that was a restricted area?

 

The way I understood it was if you spectate any motorsport event the outside of any corner is always a restricted area, as that is the area that a car/bike will end up if its out of control, to be honest i did not think they used that lay-by TT week for that reason.

 

any area marked red would be a dangerous place to spectate this pic was copied from a rally website but same rules apply in all special stage events.

 

 

These markings would seem to me to be common sense, but in that case how is the area at the bottom of Bray Hill not restricted? The one way road that leads to the traffic lights at the bottom of the hill seems very exposed to any failures or high speed accidents. I'm amazed people can still go and sit or stand down there to watch the bikes flying towards them.

 

I live on Bray Hill so obviously not anti-TT but how would I stand re insurance if my kids were playing in the garden and the worst case scenario happened? No householder on Bray Hill gets any official notification about the dangers of motor sport and how they stand in terms of liability. What about people who watch from my garden? Could their familes sue me? A guy was killed on Bray Hill a few years ago and the sidecar accident in the 70's was horrendous...you can't predict safe areas when these bikes are coming down at 180mph. Can anyone advise on the liability side for housholders living on the course?

[Albert Tatlock]

I live on Bray Hill so obviously not anti-TT but how would I stand re insurance if my kids were playing in the garden and the worst case scenario happened? No householder on Bray Hill gets any official notification about the dangers of motor sport and how they stand in terms of liability. What about people who watch from my garden? Could their familes sue me? A guy was killed on Bray Hill a few years ago and the sidecar accident in the 70's was horrendous...you can't predict safe areas when these bikes are coming down at 180mph. Can anyone advise on the liability side for housholders living on the course?

As I understand it, in 2007 for example, the ACU carried the insurance (I think it was limited to £30 million liability per any one accident) which included damage to property etc. during any permitted event like the TT.

 

In the event of a bike flying into your garden, you would have to claim on the organisers insurance. However, obviously if someone in your garden is watching the races and e.g. slips on a grape next to your wheelie bin, then thats down to you (though you may be able to get away with that one ).

[trostagh]

The only good thing that can hopefully come out of this is that there is a root and branch review of safety, procedures etc and far from this being a "freak" accident it is an accident that can not happen again. If the correct procedures are put in place there should be no circumstances in which spectators can find themselves in a restricted area unknowingly and if they are there knowingly the appropriate action should be taken to protect their safety e.g. by yellow flags to slow the bikes, until they have been removed.

 

anybody found in this zone will be asked to be moved and if thay do not agree then all races will be stopped, intill said person is moved from area, ie if u refuse to move u going to get arrest,

 

 

what if I am in a restricted zone that is MY property?? i'm fairly sure you cannot be forcibly removed or arrested for being on your own private property!!

 

You might want to check your deeds. I'm told that properties on the course should have a document included in their deeds that allows prohibited areas to apply to property owners during road closures. Mind you I might be wrong - the CSMs weren't too sure what to do either.

[WTF]

The only good thing that can hopefully come out of this is that there is a root and branch review of safety, procedures etc and far from this being a "freak" accident it is an accident that can not happen again. If the correct procedures are put in place there should be no circumstances in which spectators can find themselves in a restricted area unknowingly and if they are there knowingly the appropriate action should be taken to protect their safety e.g. by yellow flags to slow the bikes, until they have been removed.

 

anybody found in this zone will be asked to be moved and if thay do not agree then all races will be stopped, intill said person is moved from area, ie if u refuse to move u going to get arrest,

 

 

what if I am in a restricted zone that is MY property?? i'm fairly sure you cannot be forcibly removed or arrested for being on your own private property!!

 

You might want to check your deeds. I'm told that properties on the course should have a document included in their deeds that allows prohibited areas to apply to property owners during road closures. Mind you I might be wrong - the CSMs weren't too sure what to do either.

 

the deeds to my property were in existance long before the TT was ever dreamt about, in fact long before steam engines, never mind the petrol engine so i doubt there would be anything in them to that effect. i seem to recall in the year of foot and mouth that some farmers refused to let anybody, marshals included on their land should the races go ahead for fear of contamination so i would guess the landowner has final say on what is or is not on his or her property?

[Frances]

There is another more interesting question re insurance - in the previous TT a marshal went to the aid of a rider (against the rules but with the best of intentions) and was killed by an oncoming bike - the resulting out of control bike could easily have ploughed into a group of spectators in a supposedly safe area - luckily it didn't, but the insurance costs would have been high and legally I suspect could have been shifted onto the executors of the marshal. This case would also appear to have similar characteristics though more of sins of ommision rather than commission - marshals acknowledged the presence of spectators in a restricted area but apparently did nothing to remove them.

[Mr. Sausages]

If the TT lasted another 100 years, the chances of that happening again are so remote. It was a complete freak accident!

 

Perhaps the specific circumstances won't be repeated, but I think it was, and is, inevitable that spectators were killed. Once a bike is out of control, it's out of control. Bikes are often out of control during the TT.

 

I had a conversation with someone a couple of years ago about this. He was pro-TT, I was anti. My argument was that the races didn't fit in with modern society - they are too dangerous. He agreed. I said they should end them, he disagreed as the riders knew the risks. Fair enough. I then said that the law of probability suggested that a spectator would be killed one day, and once that happened the races were unjustifiable and would have to end. He agreed. He also told me that when the young girl suffered serious injuries in the 90s, the powers that be sat down behind closed doors, and realising that the races had to end, decided to pull the plug after the centenery races. Of course, that didn't end up happening. Cos the same people weren't in charge by then, and those injuries were probably forgotten by then. Just as this incident will be forgotten. Until next time.

[Twitch]

The only good thing that can hopefully come out of this is that there is a root and branch review of safety, procedures etc and far from this being a "freak" accident it is an accident that can not happen again. If the correct procedures are put in place there should be no circumstances in which spectators can find themselves in a restricted area unknowingly and if they are there knowingly the appropriate action should be taken to protect their safety e.g. by yellow flags to slow the bikes, until they have been removed.

 

anybody found in this zone will be asked to be moved and if thay do not agree then all races will be stopped, intill said person is moved from area, ie if u refuse to move u going to get arrest,

 

 

what if I am in a restricted zone that is MY property?? i'm fairly sure you cannot be forcibly removed or arrested for being on your own private property!!

 

You might want to check your deeds. I'm told that properties on the course should have a document included in their deeds that allows prohibited areas to apply to property owners during road closures. Mind you I might be wrong - the CSMs weren't too sure what to do either.

 

 

Cheers I'll check that out

[WTF]

There is another more interesting question re insurance - in the previous TT a marshal went to the aid of a rider (against the rules but with the best of intentions) and was killed by an oncoming bike - the resulting out of control bike could easily have ploughed into a group of spectators in a supposedly safe area - luckily it didn't, but the insurance costs would have been high and legally I suspect could have been shifted onto the executors of the marshal. This case would also appear to have similar characteristics though more of sins of ommision rather than commission - marshals acknowledged the presence of spectators in a restricted area but apparently did nothing to remove them.

 

 

i suppose the big question is are the restricted area signs visible on any of the video or photographic images taken at the time. somewhere above is a claim that the signs were in place the previous day! so does that mean that during the night before the crash someone came along and removed ALL the signs?? un fekin likely. here, have a buck, i don't want it.

[andrew]

what if I am in a restricted zone that is MY property?? i'm fairly sure you cannot be forcibly removed or arrested for being on your own private property!!

 

If the DOT/Race Organisers feel that a certain part of private land should be made a prohibited area, then they will approach the landowner and ask if they can make it a prohibited area. There is a form/contract that is signed along with a plan of the area showing which area is prohibited. This then makes it a prohibited area and accountable under the law.

 

If the Landowner changes, then a new form/contract has to be signed to keep the area prohibited otherwise the prohibited area ceases to be one. The form/contract doesn't become part of the house deeds.

 

Last TT or MGP, Marshals reporting someone watching the racing from a grass verge next to the road (i.e. just a raised kerb seperating them) that they believed was a prohibited area. It turned out that the landowner had changed and as such, was quite within the law in being on it - and there was nothing anyone could do about it.

 

Obviously any Govt Department that owns land won't object if a request to make it a prohibited area is made. Nor do most of the farmers who own land up on the mountain.