scarbunny Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 A fixed term means the deal lasts for a fixed amount of time. It doesn't (necessarily) mean you can't get your funds Withdrawals are not normally allowed from fixed term deposits. More flexible packages do exist. By definition they are not fixed. Eg: from the T&C of a typical 18 month fixed account - this one currently offered by Britannia International: 3.2 No withdrawals, closures or transfers are permitted prior to maturity. Eg: from the T&C of a typical 18 month fixed account - this one currently offered by The Co-Operative Bank: 6.1 The term of your account is fixed for the period of investment selected by you on your application form. You cannot withdraw your money for the term of the account. Thanks for clearing that up, I withdraw my previous statement. Although there was at least one where withdrawal before maturity was offered at a substantial penalty as my in laws were told around £3k by Bradford and Bingley, however this was a 5 year term, which only had 18 months to run, if I remember correctly. Although my argument that Bellyache failed to look after his savings still stands as his money was held in an instant access account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Old Git Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 First, two people I know had fixed deposits with one of the Irish banks, Anglo-Irish I think, and were able to withdraw by suffering a penalty I think that may have depended on the sums involved and when. The £100k I previously mentioned sticking in HSBC came from Anglo-Irish (if that's the one on the top floor of the old Bushey's) and when I'd previously asked about breaking the 1 year fixed term deposit I was told flat out that I couldn't. I think by that time there had been quite a few withdrawals from the Irish Banks so they may have been running low on funds. Your friends may have go out earlier. I was quite relived when the 1 year term was up and didn't take up their offer to reinvest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Anglo Irish was hectic. One week everyone was running to take money out. Then the Irish Govt 'guaranteed' them and everyone was rushing to put money in. It was crowded. The staff at HBOS must have been under a fair bit of stress late last year too. I was in there a few times when they were having to deal with customers on the verge of losing it completely and being quite rude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 What I completely missed is that Bellyache had admitted that he had an instant access account. And yet he was bellyaching about having put his money into Derbyshire, not KSF. Anyway, seems I was wrong about many fixed term accounts. But not all! S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellyup Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 What I completely missed is that Bellyache had admitted that he had an instant access account. And yet he was bellyaching about having put his money into Derbyshire, not KSF. Anyway, seems I was wrong about many fixed term accounts. But not all! S The point that I was making ( that naturally you missed ) is that I put my money into a reputable Bank on the Isle of Man - The Derbyshire Building Society and had done so for many years. Now all I receive is bile hatred and envious glee coming from an IOM resident who like all other IOM residents have reaped the benefits of depositors like myself for. decades. This does not look good nor will it encourage anyone else to take their business there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris watson Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 What I completely missed is that Bellyache had admitted that he had an instant access account. And yet he was bellyaching about having put his money into Derbyshire, not KSF. Anyway, seems I was wrong about many fixed term accounts. But not all! S I think I mentioned it before, but I (stupidly) didn't take my monies out of KSFIOM because I'd thought if someone like I did it, everyone else would, and it'd cause a run on the bank. Yes, you can laugh, but I'd watched the black and white show reels about Wall Street from the soon-to-be-dust-bowl 30's in my history lessons at school and scoffed at the lines outside British Northern Rock branches a few months earlier. Far as I'm concerned, IOM has done more than other Crown Dependencies (we have to compare apples with apples) and was satisfied the DCS limit was raised to 50K and up to 10K via Early Payment Schemes (EPS) was made available. IOM did not have to do any of this, and it was more than the Channel Islands did. The fact UK has raised a 50% tax threshold will no doubt help IOM in the long run too. HOWEVER, keeping objective, the handling of the SOA by the IOM authorities was a complete balls up and the fact Attorney General presented his case to his (alleged) brother, the Deemster in charge of the KSFIOM case, will never rid me of the belief IOM system is feudal and I will not knowingly bank in the IOM again. The fact the liquidator is "local" and seemingly "played ball" with the IOM authorities does not rest well with me either. Having never been to the IOM, and being a fully-paid urbanite, I am left with the impression of something similar to a "League Of Gentleman" episode on BBC2. For those of you familiar with the reference (trivia: the series was exported as "Psychoville" in Asian-speaking countries, hence the name of the new unrelated production series on the BBC by the same creators) you may recall this catchprase made by actors with elastic bands fastened tighly around their noses and ears and other facial extemities. If you are not familiar with the series, then I guess this will make no sense and you'll be excused the embarrassment. "Are you local? We'll have no trouble here. This is a local shop for local people. There's nothing for you here". Legend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Most fixed term accounts have a get out clause(sp?). Not true. The only "get out clause" wrt most fixed term deposits is if the account holder dies. Same with fixed term money market deposits. ETA: same with fixed term 'bond' accounts too. Death is the get out option. Though it is true that there are some similar accounts which are more flexible. What surprises me is that Company X, regulated in the EU, can sell its business and transfer all deposits to Company Y whose ultimate owner is regulated in for example Timbuktoo without the depositors having the right to reconsider their situation. Of course Company Y would not voluntarily give an option to withdraw funds but if there was a material change in the overall management of the deposit (new company, new ultimate owner, new regulator of the ultimate owner) maybe the situation was not quite as black and white as if the term deposit stayed within the company depositors had selected initially? I would have thought that it would have been really worth asking the question at the time. Not seen any evidence that depositors asked the question - or what answer they were given. HOWEVER, keeping objective, the handling of the SOA by the IOM authorities was a complete balls up and the fact Attorney General presented his case to his (alleged) brother, the Deemster in charge of the KSFIOM case, will never rid me of the belief IOM system is feudal and I will not knowingly bank in the IOM again. The fact the liquidator is "local" and seemingly "played ball" with the IOM authorities does not rest well with me either. Chris, IMO most people here are genuinely sorry that depositors are having such a bad time between the Manx and UK Governments in getting access to their funds. If you read other threads here you will understand that a lot of people here empathise with your 'feudal' comment - however (maybe more unfortunately) it may be that our politicians and public servants are not so much feudal as 'out of their depth'. They have difficulties keeping up with a wide range of issues from road repairs to proper and open control of capital expenditure. Being incompetent is worse IMO than being feudal - mind you one gets the impression that the Channel Islands manage to combine both elements better (or worse really) than the IOM does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Not seen any evidence that depositors asked the question - or what answer they were given. Where would you expect to see that evidence? Here is an extract from some fairly typical terms and conditions. I think it is a fair guess that all institutions will have a similar condition concerning the transfer of business. Transfer of business We shall have the right on giving you one month’s prior notice in writing, to transfer the principal sum and interest in the account to another bank (the successor bank) offering similar deposit facilities and on substantially the same investment terms. For this purpose, you authorise us (a) to open an account with a successor bank in your name, (b) to transfer your funds to the successor bank, and to supply your account records and personal details to the successor bank. We shall use reasonable endeavours to ensure that the successor bank pays and continues to pay interest on the amounts invested, without deduction of income tax or other relevant taxes or levies unless required by law or regulations. On the transfer becoming effective, your account with xxxxx shall be closed and our liability to you to repay the funds on deposit shall cease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebrof Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Not seen any evidence that depositors asked the question - or what answer they were given. Where would you expect to see that evidence? Here is an extract from some fairly typical terms and conditions. I think it is a fair guess that all institutions will have a similar condition concerning the transfer of business. Transfer of business We shall have the right on giving you one month’s prior notice in writing, to transfer the principal sum and interest in the account to another bank (the successor bank) offering similar deposit facilities and on substantially the same investment terms. For this purpose, you authorise us (a) to open an account with a successor bank in your name, (b) to transfer your funds to the successor bank, and to supply your account records and personal details to the successor bank. We shall use reasonable endeavours to ensure that the successor bank pays and continues to pay interest on the amounts invested, without deduction of income tax or other relevant taxes or levies unless required by law or regulations. On the transfer becoming effective, your account with xxxxx shall be closed and our liability to you to repay the funds on deposit shall cease. What you have quoted, Pongo, is exactly why I would not deposit substantial sums on similar terms. It's a licence to make a killing, and I think that in the UK, if not here, you would be able to argue for such a term to be set aside by a court. It's clearly outrageous. And to Chris Watson, I think everybody here is sorry for people who lost money. Regrettably, the stance taken by Bellyache has been less than helpful in winning support for KSF depositors generally. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Not seen any evidence that depositors asked the question - or what answer they were given. Where would you expect to see that evidence? Here is an extract from some fairly typical terms and conditions. I think it is a fair guess that all institutions will have a similar condition concerning the transfer of business. Transfer of business We shall have the right on giving you one month’s prior notice in writing, to transfer the principal sum and interest in the account to another bank (the successor bank) offering similar deposit facilities and on substantially the same investment terms. For this purpose, you authorise us (a) to open an account with a successor bank in your name, (b) to transfer your funds to the successor bank, and to supply your account records and personal details to the successor bank. We shall use reasonable endeavours to ensure that the successor bank pays and continues to pay interest on the amounts invested, without deduction of income tax or other relevant taxes or levies unless required by law or regulations. On the transfer becoming effective, your account with xxxxx shall be closed and our liability to you to repay the funds on deposit shall cease. Interesting - so if you signed up to this arrangement (which I assume from what you say is not the Derbyshire wording) you would be authorising your bank to pass on your money to another bank without any comeback on them? This would apply even if your bank simply wanted to sell a book of business to another bank. However I wonder if Derbyshire investors considered having an ultimate owner that was EU regulated and then having an ultimate owner that was regulated in Iceland as being 'substantially the same investment terms' ? As to 'where you would expect to see that evidence' I would expect to see it if any of the Derbyshire depositors wrote to either to Derbyshire, KSF or the Manx regulator to query the compulsory transfer of funds to KSF - in the form of the reply they received. People have said from time to time on various threads that some (obviously not all) of the Derbyshire/KSF depositors were quite sophisticated investors. Given that there had already been some media coverage in journals such as The Economist and the FT about the weakness and risks of Icelandic banking I would have expected some of these people to have written and to have received a reply. Did everyone accepted the transfer happily and without question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 What you have quoted, Pongo, is exactly why I would not deposit substantial sums on similar terms. It's a licence to make a killing, and I think that in the UK, if not here, you would be able to argue for such a term to be set aside by a court. It's clearly outrageous. It's a fairly typical condition same here as the UK. I never heard of similar terms being challenged in a court. Did you ? If you open a bank account you accept these or similar conditions. Where do you put your money to be banked if not in a bank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Given that there had already been some media coverage in journals such as The Economist and the FT about the weakness and risks of Icelandic banking I would have expected some of these people to have written and to have received a reply. Did everyone accepted the transfer happily and without question? I have no idea. I assume that sort of thing would have been a matter for the regulators. Isn't that why regulation exists? The depositors would almost certainly have been under whatever contract the T&C committed them to. I'm only pointing out that these sorts of terms regarding the transfer of business are quite normal. What I have quoted is IOM. It is also fairly typical AFAIK. As savers I think we depend upon the regulators to ensure that the businesses are sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Interesting - so if you signed up to this arrangement (which I assume from what you say is not the Derbyshire wording) you would be authorising your bank to pass on your money to another bank without any comeback on them? This would apply even if your bank simply wanted to sell a book of business to another bank. I'm not a lawyer or a financial whizz so I cannot comment on what the terms imply. But I would be surprised if anyone was surprised by these T&C which are very typical. TBH - it's what you sign up for when you open an account. So what have I shown today ( ) : 1. Fixed terms are fixed. 2. You probably agreed that your business can be sold on. These are typical conditions. Within that you rely on the system being sound. And I am not saying that the system is not sound btw. Even a perfect system will fail sometimes. Sometimes things go wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 What I completely missed is that Bellyache had admitted that he had an instant access account. And yet he was bellyaching about having put his money into Derbyshire, not KSF. Anyway, seems I was wrong about many fixed term accounts. But not all! S The point that I was making ( that naturally you missed ) is that I put my money into a reputable Bank on the Isle of Man - The Derbyshire Building Society and had done so for many years. Now all I receive is bile hatred and envious glee coming from an IOM resident who like all other IOM residents have reaped the benefits of depositors like myself for. decades. This does not look good nor will it encourage anyone else to take their business there. Why don't you try looking for a job to try and earn some money whilst awaiting whatever you will get when this is resolved instead of spending your time on here aliaenating(sp) people would otherwise be sympathetic to your cause. You are an embarrasment to all those who have a legitimate greivance (yourself included) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbie Bobster Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 So what have I shown today ( ) : 1. Fixed terms are fixed. ... For clarification, here's a T&C extract from an IoM subsidiary of one of the Irish banks "Requests for partial withdrawals ... or repayment ... in full before the Maturity Date are at the absolute discretion of the Bank and may be refused. A partial withdrawal ... or repayment ... before the Maturity Date will be subject to a penalty charge to compensate the Bank for the costs and expenses incurred ..." So, in relation to breaking fixed-term deposits, as with so many other things, your mileage may vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.