Manx Nationalism Is Worrying

[Charles Flynn]

No one should think a so-called menial job is beneath them. There is much value is doing menial work - learning how to interact with others which is valuable experience in any work situation. No matter what life brings we should never think we are too good to do the most boring jobs.

 

My first job as a pharmacist graduate was dusting the counter. I feel privileged to have been trusted with the task.

[scarbunny]

But as has been said many times before LDV self respect doesn't pay the bills, if some one is unwilling to contribute to society, and lets be honest those doing menial jobs contribute more to the running of our society than the high flying business men, then why should society contribute to them?

 

If people have pride and self worth then working any job to the best of their ability is better than sitting watching Jeremy Kyle living on state benefits, and anyone who thinks that that is a better existence than a proper job does not deserve to be supported. If the menial jobs don't pay enough for people to live on then there should be financial aid of some form, but those that choose to opt out of being productive in any form should also opt out of state support.

[aimeejulia]

the wish to be the best your are is quite a healthy state of mind, sometimes though its better to make do with the opportunities present if it pays the rent while you are waiting for something more worth while

[VinnieK]

It is a shame so many students study courses and then abandon the subject. Hopefully there is some residual benefit in knowing about say engineering and becoming a banker.

 

I don't think it's really a shame. With a few notable exceptions (such as engineering and law) university is primarily about education, not vocational training. The basic 'skills' you happen to pick up along the way are common to the vast bulk of degree courses, namely the ability to analyse, reason and construct and present arguments for your conclusion at a high level are generic, and there's no real reason why someone should go into a degree course intending to enter their chosen subject in a professional capacity.

 

A large number of university applicants' main aspiration is to secure graduate level employment. For this they require three or four years in higher education and it makes sense that they will choose to study a subject they enjoy (and perhaps is related to their preferred area of employment), without necessarily wanting to work in that exact discipline for the rest of their lives.

 

The responsibility to some extent must lie with those who forecast the projected need for graduates.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this. We don't live in a full on command economy where someone forcasts the number of graduates needed for a certain discipline and then allocates so many places at each university for that subject - the number of places available tends to be influenced primarly by the number of applicants and the amount of funding.

 

If people aren't taking up STEM subjects, it's not because of wonky forecasts or what have you. The reason such subjects attract less applications is as decades old: the subjects simply don't appeal to the vast majority of people and aren't prerequisites for the bulk of graduate jobs.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

No one should think a so-called menial job is beneath them. There is much value is doing menial work - learning how to interact with others which is valuable experience in any work situation. No matter what life brings we should never think we are too good to do the most boring jobs.

There is value in social interaction - interaction that need not come from work, however, but certainly would be an aspect of work where there is value in comparison to the menial duties. And I don't doubt that experience of being 'stupid' (you are what you do) comes to be very useful in other jobs. I think being stupid sitting behind a desk in a low grade bank job prepared me very well for being stupid sitting in a similar low grade insurance type role. (Not that I look down on those who do such work, because it is the problem of how society is organised and how things are run that people are often or mainly unable to make use of their talent and skills and lead a productive life in the manner they desire). Maybe I have too high an opinion of people's worth.

 

But as has been said many times before LDV self respect doesn't pay the bills, if some one is unwilling to contribute to society, and lets be honest those doing menial jobs contribute more to the running of our society than the high flying business men, then why should society contribute to them?

 

If people have pride and self worth then working any job to the best of their ability is better than sitting watching Jeremy Kyle living on state benefits, and anyone who thinks that that is a better existence than a proper job does not deserve to be supported. If the menial jobs don't pay enough for people to live on then there should be financial aid of some form, but those that choose to opt out of being productive in any form should also opt out of state support.

Which is what underlies of this, but I didn't want to mention it again because I'd be repeating myself. Because work is itself demeaning when you have to rent yourself. To have to rent yourself to do menial work and therefore have your survival and productive life rest on not using your mind is about as lacking in self respect as you get. Not that people have a choice but to take up such work. Others as you mention no doubt recognise the lack of value and meaningfulness in such work and understandably cop out. Can't say I blame them. Either way you being stupid, just depends on whether you choose to do nothing and be stupid or work hard at being stupid.

 

Menial tasks have to be undertaken in society. But for people to spend most of their working day, day in day out to just sustain their lives is a waste of life.

 

Anyway. I am taking the thread off course. Just HAD to response to Jimbms comments.

Edited January 9, 2010 by La_Dolce_Vita

[Charles Flynn]

Waste of life comments reminds me of all those people who you can see going to work from a city railway station - most rushing to get there on time, most looking completely drained. Perhaps we should be very thankful we live in the Isle of Man.

[Charles Flynn]

It is a shame so many students study courses and then abandon the subject. Hopefully there is some residual benefit in knowing about say engineering and becoming a banker.

 

I don't think it's really a shame. With a few notable exceptions (such as engineering and law) university is primarily about education, not vocational training. The basic 'skills' you happen to pick up along the way are common to the vast bulk of degree courses, namely the ability to analyse, reason and construct and present arguments for your conclusion at a high level are generic, and there's no real reason why someone should go into a degree course intending to enter their chosen subject in a professional capacity.

 

A large number of university applicants' main aspiration is to secure graduate level employment. For this they require three or four years in higher education and it makes sense that they will choose to study a subject they enjoy (and perhaps is related to their preferred area of employment), without necessarily wanting to work in that exact discipline for the rest of their lives.

 

The responsibility to some extent must lie with those who forecast the projected need for graduates.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this. We don't live in a full on command economy where someone forcasts the number of graduates needed for a certain discipline and then allocates so many places at each university for that subject - the number of places available tends to be influenced primarly by the number of applicants and the amount of funding.

 

If people aren't taking up STEM subjects, it's not because of wonky forecasts or what have you. The reason such subjects attract less applications is as decades old: the subjects simply don't appeal to the vast majority of people and aren't prerequisites for the bulk of graduate jobs.

 

 

Many courses these days are vocational and certainly in my profession and from my personal experience of others regular surveys are done to decide the future needs for graduates. However it used to be the case that a university course was seen as intrinsically valuable but I believe - may be you know better - those days,with currently so many more universities and undergraduates, are long past in this competitive world,

[jimbms]

I would say a lot of times it can be the opposite, i.e. a bunch of over educated dickheads who think they are too good for menial jobs blaming everyone else for the fact they have no jobs anymore because companies cannot afford to now take on the higher paid/educated dickheads and the only jobs open to them are menial ones they think are beneath them...

Even those who are not intelligent should find a menial job to be beneath them when it comprises of their productive life (full-time job). Why should someone feel they should waste their mind and time being stupid doing something menial day in and day out. It's called self respect in recognising you should do better.

Simple answer LDV do the work or starve, I care not, just don't expect me to support your sponging lifestyle no matter what work I do. To add I would say from experience you feel more self respect earning whatever money you get rather than be a sponger off the state, let's put it this way I am a lot higher qualified than you but have done some real shit jobs at times to keep money coming in, but never have I scrounged off the state and I am proud of that.

[jimbms]

This I say from some experience, my sons engineering degree was dropped due to lack of numbers, luckily he is now with an employer who is paying for him to complete it independently, whilst at the same uni they increased the numbers doing media studies travel and other such over subscribed courses,

 

Off topic, but which university was this? They don't usually close down courses with people still on them, they just close applications for the next year and run the degree until all current undergraduates have completed their studies. If, for whatever reason, they can't do this, then they typically arrange for a place to be allocated to their students at a different university.

 

At any rate, why didn't your son just transfer to a different university?

The course was merged with motor sport engineering and was at UCL he was given the choice of doing that of sod off, no other uni at the time was doing a 3D cad mechanical engineering design masters course.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Fortunately, it isn't a case of work or starve in society. And I don't have a sponging lifestyle - I just understand and agree with the reasons why many choose not to work. And with there being so much social stigma about state support - no wonder it considered more respectful to have a job. But how would you know, you never have had state support to comment on what it FEELS like. But I find it a strange concept to grasp that there is respect to be had by working to keeping oneself alive.

[Twitch]

LDV, I don't really want to work as I'm a lazy bugger. Do you agree that the State should finance my lifestyle, mortgage, etc, while I take a couple of years off? What does Marx say about this?

[Frances]

The course was merged with motor sport engineering and was at UCL he was given the choice of doing that of sod off, no other uni at the time was doing a 3D cad mechanical engineering design masters course.

Masters level courses in engineering are usually (near 100% in my experience) add on vocational courses that are seen as supplying a specific set of skills for a particular industry and with few exceptions had to be self supporting in terms of fees + student numbers - I ran a very successful one for many years - there was an industrial advisory panel which helped steer the direction - we offered a number of streams based on a mix of core subjects and options whch changed from one year to the next with the choice of options giving the specific degree title- each option required a minimum number of students signed up for it in order for it to run (especially for the first year it ran or if it was one one that needed expensive dedicated equipment to support it) - if the number of applicants did not match this minimal number then the course was not run - such occurances were rare but essential for generally cash strapped universities - the course advertising always made this clear. It sounds very much to me that UCL (generally regarded as a high status college) did not get the minimal number for a new course which as suggested by your comments was also not seen as viable by other universities - Cranfield often provided such highly specialised courses but their fee structure was often twice that of other universities.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Frances

[jimbms]

The course was merged with motor sport engineering and was at UCL he was given the choice of doing that of sod off, no other uni at the time was doing a 3D cad mechanical engineering design masters course.

Masters level courses in engineering are usually (near 100% in my experience) add on vocational courses that are seen as supplying a specific set of skills for a particular industry and with few exceptions had to be self supporting in terms of fees + student numbers - I ran a very successful one for many years - there was an industrial advisory panel which helped steer the direction - we offered a number of streams based on a mix of core subjects and options whch changed from one year to the next with the choice of options giving the specific degree title- each option required a minimum number of students signed up for it in order for it to run (especially for the first year it ran or if it was one one that needed expensive dedicated equipment to support it) - if the number of applicants did not match this minimal number then the course was not run - such occurances were rare but essential for generally cash strapped universities - the course advertising always made this clear. It sounds very much to me that UCL (generally regarded as a high status college) did not get the minimal number for a new course which as suggested by your comments was also not seen as viable by other universities - Cranfield often provided such highly specialised courses but their fee structure was often twice that of other universities.

I thought that was what I said, i.e. it was dropped at the end of the first year, the question is I cannot see why uni's advertise oversubscribed courses when they fail to advertise properly courses which they know will be under subscribed, maybe because as you say they get more for bums on seats than for doing courses industry needs, great society when we have thousands of travel management and the like graduates but we struggle to find an engineer or even enough plumbers come to that. As for your comments about not being viable, please explain how the situation where there are 17 jobs for every graduate does not make a viable argument for govt funding, unless of course getting high numbers through uni on easier courses makes a better spin for higher education figures. BTW 3d mechanical engineering designed was deemed to be a masters due to the higher number of blocks required to make it viable.

[jimbms]

But how would you know, you never have had state support to comment on what it FEELS like.

Of course I havn't, I got off my arse and found work instead. You wouldn't see the respect in earning enough to keep yourself rather than scrounge of others would you? after all if you have no self respect you wouldn't think twice about taking money out of the pockets of others who have worked for it would you?

[VinnieK]

The course was merged with motor sport engineering and was at UCL he was given the choice of doing that of sod off, no other uni at the time was doing a 3D cad mechanical engineering design masters course.

 

UCL don't offer anything combined with motor sport engineering, I think you mean UCLAN, which does, and which was the university you specified on a previous thread.

 

UCL by contrast do offer mechanical engineering, Glasgow offers mechanical design engineering (including the use of CAD), as does Manchester. Leeds offers an MSc in Advanced Mechanical Engineering with the emphasis on design and computational methods, and I suspect there is a similar story across the board.

 

I'm feel a little guilty calling you out on this, but, given what you said the last time this issue came up I can't help but feel that you've either been misled, or are missing out a hell of a lot of the details and distorting the situation a little when railing against 'micky mouse' degrees. The last time this was discussed three of the most glaring errors you made were:

 

UCLAN was the only university to offer a single honours degree in Chemistry (false);

 

That in order to study Chemistry, your son had to study a microbiology course at Leeds before transferring onto the course at UCLAN because nowhere else offered Chemistry (in fact Leeds itself had and still has a perfectly good single honours degree in Chemistry);

 

That in the next year (2009 in this case), only UCLAN would be offering a Chemistry degree not in conjunction with another subject (again, false.), stating that this was due to undersubscription (despite the fact that Bristol, for instance, had an appication to place ratio of ten to one).

 

So I hope you'll forgive me if I'm a little sceptical.