Manx Nationalism Is Worrying

[kersal]

Lets think about this. Nationalists would not allow major stores like HMV,Marks & Spencers,Boots etc.. to send large amounts of money off the island. They would therefor cease to operate and would be replaced by Manx stores selling a small range of very expensive goods. People who are from the UK would not be able to return home and receive their full state pension and so would be unlikely to work here. Also, the government would not be able to fund teachers pensions and health service pensions , meaning that teachers and health service workers, most of whom are trained in the UK and are from the UK or further afield, would not want to work here. This is already happening with doctors.,who are worried about the impact of nationalism. The Nationalist government would not be able to fund these pensions because nationlalism would have such an adverse affect upon the economy. The rest of the world is in the process of 'finding friends' to amalgamate with, for example the European Union. The reason for this is that isolation is extremely dangerous, particularly if you are a tiny island that has for much of its recent history relied upon outside skills and money whether through tourism or finance. The Manx have done an excellent job since the industrial revolution of using their resources to attract outsiders, mainly via the two industries mentioned. Ultimately, if you become independent you isolate yourselves. People will not want to visit the island because the island will not have the economy to fund a tourism economy and people will not want to invest their skills or money into the island because they have too much to lose or risk by investing in an independent nation. The island has been able to use its unique position of being a crown dependency and also having some independence to its advantage. This has been very clever and says a lot about the strength of such a small nation. However, independence means isolation and isolation will mean less money,less opportunity and poorer living standards for every person who remains here. By all means be proud of where you come from, but just because the Uk can't afford to maintain the reciprocal health agreement with wealthy offshore nations that tend to use the UK health service a great deal and because they have modified an expensive VAT sharing agreement, don't try and bite the hand that feeds you. You have a good standard of liviing here because of the way that you have used the Isle of Mans advantage. Go independent and you take away that advantage.The worrying thing is that young people are being attracted by the glamour of independence and have no real knowledge of its impact. This island needs to be looking at ways to manipulate its advantageous position, not burning its bridges. Lets hope that the government can think of strategies to stop this dangerous indoctrination of young, often idealistic people. Lets all share in wealth here ! I don't want to feel that I am being pushed into going home because the island is on the verge of tipping into the sea. I already know of people who are turning down positions here in the medical profession and in education because of the widely reported rise in Nationalism.

 

Mike

[tiptop]

Lets think about this. Nationalists would not allow major stores like HMV,Marks & Spencers,Boots etc.. to send large amounts of money off the island. They would therefor cease to operate and would be replaced by Manx stores selling a small range of very expensive goods. People who are from the UK would not be able to return home and receive their full state pension and so would be unlikely to work here. Also, the government would not be able to fund teachers pensions and health service pensions , meaning that teachers and health service workers, most of whom are trained in the UK and are from the UK or further afield, would not want to work here. This is already happening with doctors.,who are worried about the impact of nationalism. The Nationalist government would not be able to fund these pensions because nationlalism would have such an adverse affect upon the economy. The rest of the world is in the process of 'finding friends' to amalgamate with, for example the European Union. The reason for this is that isolation is extremely dangerous, particularly if you are a tiny island that has for much of its recent history relied upon outside skills and money whether through tourism or finance. The Manx have done an excellent job since the industrial revolution of using their resources to attract outsiders, mainly via the two industries mentioned. Ultimately, if you become independent you isolate yourselves. People will not want to visit the island because the island will not have the economy to fund a tourism economy and people will not want to invest their skills or money into the island because they have too much to lose or risk by investing in an independent nation. The island has been able to use its unique position of being a crown dependency and also having some independence to its advantage. This has been very clever and says a lot about the strength of such a small nation. However, independence means isolation and isolation will mean less money,less opportunity and poorer living standards for every person who remains here. By all means be proud of where you come from, but just because the Uk can't afford to maintain the reciprocal health agreement with wealthy offshore nations that tend to use the UK health service a great deal and because they have modified an expensive VAT sharing agreement, don't try and bite the hand that feeds you. You have a good standard of liviing here because of the way that you have used the Isle of Mans advantage. Go independent and you take away that advantage.The worrying thing is that young people are being attracted by the glamour of independence and have no real knowledge of its impact. This island needs to be looking at ways to manipulate its advantageous position, not burning its bridges. Lets hope that the government can think of strategies to stop this dangerous indoctrination of young, often idealistic people. Lets all share in wealth here ! I don't want to feel that I am being pushed into going home because the island is on the verge of tipping into the sea. I already know of people who are turning down positions here in the medical profession and in education because of the widely reported rise in Nationalism.

 

Mike

Calm down dear!

 

Just becasue a no good vandal sparys a few things on roads doesn't mean the Island will go Independent!

[Millman]

Worse still these evil terrorists will insist on proper paragraph structure on forum posts to make them readable.

 

Kersal poop your pants now.

[kersal]

Apologies, I am a Doctor on my day off and English was never my strong point. However, I hope people get the idea of my argument and they are presented with best intentions.

Kind regards

Mike

[Chinahand]

Personally I wonder about attempting a new constitutional settlement.

 

Scotland has devolution and tax raising powers, but with a relationship with Westminster that the powers-that-be do not want to wreck - many Scots would like to be more like us - increasing their home rule, but I wonder, with the VAT disaster, ending NHS reciprocation etc whether the Island would be better off if it became a bit more like Scotland with a closer settlement to the UK which cannot be unilaterally scuppered by a chancellor attacking us as a tax haven in the Irish Sea.

 

I feel that the UK Government is out to isolate us too much, and agree with Kersal that if the Island's reaction to the UK's moves is to embrace that isolation then the Island will be in trouble.

 

Isle of Man -----> Ideal Constitutional Position <----- Scotland

 

Obviously I'm simplifying vastly complex ideas, but if the new UK government continues these policies then there will be troubles ahead.

 

Given the IMF, OECD etc view on offshore finance, if the UK goes out to scupper the Island's international position as it has scuppered our domestic relationship with it then the Island will be in for a major economic shock which will wreck its future.

[scarbunny]

I think the Island is in a very precarious sweet spot at the minute. I agree that full independence would probably never work as we would as we would lose all connection with the EU, and while it is possible to apply for micro state status that would take a period of time and may never be granted.

 

However full amalgamation in to the UK would be just as devastating to our economy. With out the ability to set our own tax rates there would be no advantage in companies being based here, in fact being based here would be a major disadvantage to the majority of companies, over heads are higher here than in the UK, gas, electric telecoms, everything. On top of that the higher salary requirements of any staff based here.

 

For companies trading in real goods, manufacturing for example, they would have the added disadvantage of high transport costs to and from the island as they do now.

 

Then if we look at the general population of the island, both "come overs" and "locals", they would be paying UK income tax and council tax both of which are significantly higher than here. But they will still be paying similar prices to now for all goods and services, just because we are part of the UK doesn't mean we will get UK service providers, in all likelihood we will keep the MEA, Manx Gas, Manx Telecom ect. as there would be little reason for UK utility companies to set up over here for the reasons outlined above. There would also still be the Steam Packet to deal with, but they will have less income due to the reduction in freight services, as such prices will have to rise or they will run a severally restricted service, most likely a combination of the two.

 

So the way I see it the Government need to be very careful not to rock the boat too much. Any change in our situation will be devastating to the island and it residents.

[aimeejulia]

There will certainly be some changes given the pressure form the UK obviously increasing, I don't think there is any real nationalism here at all to be honest. The vast majority is happy to buy goods that are not manx (not to say that we shouldn't support the local trade because I think we should)

 

People might be a bit put off coming here because of the recent events, Vat and health agreement but I think its up to the government to see to it that the relationship is kept well and make new agreements with the UK to arrange the present perception.

[bluemonday]

On the subject of the UK government, I do feel that our wise leaders ( using both words wryly ) here should firmly do away with any notion that a change to a Conservative government will result in a second halcyon golden age.

It won't

Given the IMF, OECD etc view on offshore finance, if the UK goes out to scupper the Island's international position as it has scuppered our domestic relationship with it then the Island will be in for a major economic shock which will wreck its future.

Agreed. Finance is, by virtue of recent events, a global concern to be met with unified global regulation. The days of the small loose cannon is coming to an end. If not an end, a cul de sac.

 

Kersal as regards your concerns, whilst I do understand your points and they are valid, the 'nationalist' movement - mec vannin and their fellow bandwagon travellers are unlikely to be ever in a position to do anything.

Painting slogans and making speeches yes, competently running the island in the 21st century no.

 

I just hope you and your fellow professionals will realise that, alarming though it may seem to many, it's not likely to be a major issue here.

 

Of greater concern should be the way the present bunch are 'governing'.

I say governing - a better description might be clutching/clinging wide eyed and impotently to the tiller as the good ship IOM is tossed around on the sea of world events.

 

There may well be merit in CHs suggestion re Scotland.

[pongo]

(not to say that we shouldn't support the local trade because I think we should)

 

Buying local shouldn't really be a nationalist issue IMO. It makes sense to buy the best of local wherever you are. In any rural community.

 

Too small to be independent especially outside of Europe. Companies here producing both physical and virtual goods need to be part of the system. Almost too small, by population, to be an English county. But we will end up needing their support.

 

The idea of the island as an independent country is relatively recent. If you look at old photos of the 1930s and earlier everyone was flying the union flag for example. That was how most people thought of themselves from what I can work out. And I think it was only somewhere back in the 80s that there was a union of ideas between political nationalism and finance. Before that the finance industry was really just about a few rich people retiring here.

[Moghrey Mie]

On the subject of the UK government, I do feel that our wise leaders ( using both words wryly ) here should firmly do away with any notion that a change to a Conservative government will result in a second halcyon golden age.

It won't

Given the IMF, OECD etc view on offshore finance, if the UK goes out to scupper the Island's international position as it has scuppered our domestic relationship with it then the Island will be in for a major economic shock which will wreck its future.

Agreed. Finance is, by virtue of recent events, a global concern to be met with unified global regulation. The days of the small loose cannon is coming to an end. If not an end, a cul de sac.

 

Kersal as regards your concerns, whilst I do understand your points and they are valid, the 'nationalist' movement - mec vannin and their fellow bandwagon travellers are unlikely to be ever in a position to do anything.

Painting slogans and making speeches yes, competently running the island in the 21st century no.

 

I just hope you and your fellow professionals will realise that, alarming though it may seem to many, it's not likely to be a major issue here.

 

Of greater concern should be the way the present bunch are 'governing'.

I say governing - a better description might be clutching/clinging wide eyed and impotently to the tiller as the good ship IOM is tossed around on the sea of world events.

 

Freedom to Flourish -good Nationalism -bad

 

There may well be merit in CHs suggestion re Scotland.

[jim]

thats a big block of words

 

I can't be arserd to read.

 

 

howeverI do feel it is an appropriate time to say FUCK TESCO though

[Cambon]

I think the Island is in a very precarious sweet spot at the minute. I agree that full independence would probably never work as we would as we would lose all connection with the EU, and while it is possible to apply for micro state status that would take a period of time and may never be granted.

 

However full amalgamation in to the UK would be just as devastating to our economy. With out the ability to set our own tax rates there would be no advantage in companies being based here, in fact being based here would be a major disadvantage to the majority of companies, over heads are higher here than in the UK, gas, electric telecoms, everything. On top of that the higher salary requirements of any staff based here.

 

For companies trading in real goods, manufacturing for example, they would have the added disadvantage of high transport costs to and from the island as they do now.

 

Then if we look at the general population of the island, both "come overs" and "locals", they would be paying UK income tax and council tax both of which are significantly higher than here. But they will still be paying similar prices to now for all goods and services, just because we are part of the UK doesn't mean we will get UK service providers, in all likelihood we will keep the MEA, Manx Gas, Manx Telecom ect. as there would be little reason for UK utility companies to set up over here for the reasons outlined above. There would also still be the Steam Packet to deal with, but they will have less income due to the reduction in freight services, as such prices will have to rise or they will run a severally restricted service, most likely a combination of the two.

 

So the way I see it the Government need to be very careful not to rock the boat too much. Any change in our situation will be devastating to the island and it residents.

 

Independence does not necessarily mean cutting ties with the rest of the world, only the UK. There is no reason why IOM could not maintain good relations with Europe, USA, etc. It could actually work out very well for IOM. However, i don't think the IOM has enough governing experience to carry it off.

 

Also, I think your ideas about full amalgamation are wrong. It is more likely that transport links would improve. Things like the MEA and steampacket monopoly would go, and freight would be subsidised as per northern ireland. More UK chains would come here because there would not be the red tape (back handers etc.) required to open up. The red tape and backhanders are the route of the monopolies here.

[Declan]

I too wonder why there is a fixation on the Tories as our saviours. They are after all the Consetvative & Unionist Party. They don't have a conviction in favour of self-determination of the nations of the British Isles. And is our Government close to them in approach - public ownership of utilities, public transport, the airport? How about their feelings on big government?

 

Can an incoming UK Government redraft the Vat agreement again.

[Pierrot Lunaire]

Manx nationalism isn't worrying. It's rather quaint and a bit silly. I've never met an intelligent nationalist.

[Vulgarian]

OP seems to be confusing Nationalism with total and complete economic dissociation and independence from all other political entities. Nationalism can cover a wide range of political ideas. The people who are responsible for the recent graffiti around the Island have not stated any objectives at all so far. Their slogans give us little insight into their thinking, so we can't really say what aims they have in mind. It is a bit of jump then to say that their aim is the severance of all ties with any other union of any sort. In fact, the labelling of the graffiti as Nationalist by the media is presumptuous as no explicitly nationalist ideas have been expressed, and i suspect that labelling has behind it a will to associate it with the less appealing connotations that nationalism has.