Chinahand Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 My goodness Rog - I cannot believe that you are still going on about homosexuality and nature - it is a fact that homosexuality is ubiquitous in nature: penguins do it, flamingoes do it, even trained dolphins do it. Link 1 Link 2 I really recommend Link 2 - though it may be behind a NSFW barrier - the article itself is entirely innocuous, but maybe keeping company with more risque content! If you are going to persist in saying that homosexuality isn't right from a natural perspective then you are deliberately ignoring the evidence that homosexuality is observed throughout the natural world. Not everything which is natural is down to reproduction. And as previously you are simply stating that it isn't moral or ethical. I am asking you to explain why you are stating that is so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Rog, echoing LDV - why do you think people equate rare with wrong? Equating rare with wrong is not what is involved in the case of homosexuality. Rare would be for someone to have a ten inch penis, wrong would be to use it in a way that is unnatural, that is in a sexual relationship with another male. I presume you don't believe that it is the rarity of homosexuality which makes you want to challenge whether it is right and proper - can you articulate it better than you just stating that it "is" deviant. Sex is the natural act by which male and female creatures copulate together. To engage in a sexual conjugation with a being of the same sex although not uncommon perverts the normal sex relationship, i.e. a relationship that is correctly conducted between male and female. Sure it is rare - that is a fact we can all agree on, but your meaning seems very different from that factual meaning - I believe you think that it is wrong - no matter whether few or many practice it*. Why? Because it goes against nature. In nature animals will display same sex acts, but this is when females are not accessible to them. *You cannot say that homosexuality was abnormal in say Ancient Sparta. What I can say is that perverted sexual relationships were not unusual in Ancient Sparta and a good few other places as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freggyragh Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Deviant sexuality is not exclusive to gays, I bet Iris and Kirk got up to some pretty kinky stuff too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimeejulia Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 To be very honest Rog I think maybe you can't quite understand that any sexual activity between any 2 consenting adults is not perverted, not wrong as long as both consent. Qualifying people as normal or not basing yourself on sexual preference is unacceptable is today's society. Any type of segregation or such notions (eg let them be with their own kind) is completely and utterly unacceptable. Causing suffering and distress to others is always unacceptable. You say you understand why people would want to banish their son or daughter but how well do you also understand the son or daughter. How well do you understand their pain? The feeling that you are being persecuted only for being yourself? How would you feel if you were denied your parents love and affection? How would you feel if someone declared you are unnatural? We are all equally human and utterly different from each other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 In nature animals will display same sex acts, but this is when females are not accessible to them. Rog that is 100% incorrect. It would seem that fully exclusive homosexuality is definitely rarer than bisexual behaviour in animals (but it is much harder to observe needing to be done over the entire lifespan of the animal concerned), but it is well documented - to the extent that it's a known problem in animal husbandry - people pay good money for a stud animal, and it just will not perform no matter how many females are accessible to it! But beyond that animals use homosexuality for other reasons than just reproductive urges misdirected. In Bonobo society homosexual sex is the dominent way that social relations are made between females. The same can be said of male dolphins. These animals would behave entirely differently (unnaturally) if the homosexual elements of there behaviour were removed! Your idea that all animals are "normally" heterosexual, but if females are absent may resort to homosexuality is wrong. Rather homosexual behaviour occurs in many animals as a component of their behavioural set - that behaviour isn't triggered by lack of availability of females, but by far more complex issues such as bonding, hierachical behaviour etc. This can result in these animals never entering into heterosexual relationships, but staying within the homosexual milleux there entire lives - this is especially true with animals that have harems (question for you are harems part of natural order and hence good and wholesome?) where alpha males dominate and other males form bachelor groups. What exists in nature isn't a good reason for claiming a behaviour is moral or ethical. It is also just as nonsensical to say that if something doesn't exist in nature then it must be unethical or immoral. Come on Rog - using "homosexuality isn't natural" as a reason for saying its immoral is 1) incorrect as homosexuality is very much a part of the natural world, and 2) a very poor moral argument. Is that really all you've got to justify to prejudices? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 It's not really an on/off switch is it? This is normal / That's abnormal. Lots of things - supporting Bury, liking the music of the Espers, watching ITV4, owning an electric car - are uncommon but they're within the spectrum of normal behaviour. I suggest that the same applies to homosexuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terse Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 It's not really an on/off switch is it? This is normal / That's abnormal. Lots of things - supporting Bury, liking the music of the Espers, watching ITV4, owning an electric car - are uncommon but they're within the spectrum of normal behaviour. I suggest that the same applies to homosexuality. And they're all a matter of personal choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Roo Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 If one can so easily feel shame towards their child and abandon them over their sexual orientation then they are not fit to be a parent. You do not own your children and they are not yours to force your so called perfect ideals onto, you should guide your child/children into what is right but at the end of the day its their lives and their life choices (although obviously being gay is not a life choice). You have lived your life now let them live theirs, chances are it will be more interesting fulfilling than yours! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 And they're all a matter of personal choice? Does the distinction matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 And they're all a matter of personal choice? Does the distinction matter? I would say it does. Being a homosexual isn't a "choice" thing, any more than you have "chosen" to become bald. It's just how you're made. Suggesting that it's a choice implies that it's possible to choose the other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Normal, natural, perversion, deviancy, right and wrong. How many normative adjectives and terms are you going to use to explain some yet elusive point? Your statements don't have substance. I can see right through the hollowness of what you are saying because the nature of the language you are using. All you are doing is using the most dominant discourse on sexuality (the heterosexual one) because it offers a perspective on sexuality that you prefer or it is that you dont understand any other way of lookings of sexuality. It is a discourse that works to continually reinforce the heterosexuality identity, because without the homosexual identity existing there would be no existence of heterosexuality. The latter just continually props itself up and tries to maintain itself in the face of reality and how sexuality orientation is really displayed. You also seem to be merging sexuality and sexual orientation as if they are the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 It's not really an on/off switch is it? This is normal / That's abnormal.It is. Heterosexuals talk in terms of normal and abnormal and categorise anything outside of that as being abnormal. Heterosexuality bases its existence on claimed that it is the only valid sexuality and the correct one. And how can it be choice when you think about all the pain and suffering these straight kids go through. All those expectations on marriage, feeling like you should behave either masculine or feminine, the complicated courting/dating process. Sounds bloody tough being straight! They've had no choice about what sexuality they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 My goodness you do talk toss sometimes you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terse Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 My goodness you do talk toss sometimes you know. Why the qualifying 'sometimes?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbms Posted January 11, 2010 Share Posted January 11, 2010 Deviant sexuality is not exclusive to gays, I bet Iris and Kirk got up to some pretty kinky stuff too. what people call deviant sex to some is part of their normal sexual activity, what 2 consenting adults do in private is between themselves and should not be criticised by anyone, if you look at it another way normal boring sex to some is deviant, if two or more people enjoy what they do and nobody is forced then there is nothing wrong with it. p.s. please excuse any mistakes as it is difficult to see and write due to this leather mask and cuffs but she should be home with the key soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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