Islam In The Isle Of Man

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Atheism isn't belief or a belief system. And all such atheists are doing is asking people to look at the evidence for their beliefs rather than rely on faith, i.e. having no good reason to believe.

The issue is not about putting a stop to the spreading of irrational ideas and beliefs through legislation or force, etc. but ridiculing those who do spread it and the very beliefs themselves.

[IOM_Muslim]

but ridiculing those who do spread it and the very beliefs themselves.

 

I stopped that shit when I left school. It seems pretty pointless and not to mention extremely childish.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Then remember the dark ages where Europe was bailed out of ignorance by Islamic Spain. If you don't know what I'm talking about; open a history book.

Happy puking.

You're quite right in commenting that the Islamic societies of old were more advanced than those in Europe in many respects. But it is argued that Islam was understood differently and taken less seriously, less 'fundamentally' than it is today in the backward theocracies of the Middle East. The hold of Islam over the minds of the people of the Middle East has meant there was no enlightenment in these societies. The situation vis a vis Western Europe was reversed.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

but ridiculing those who do spread it and the very beliefs themselves.

 

I stopped that shit when I left school. It seems pretty pointless and not to mention extremely childish.

Not childish. What would you do if almost every adult in society was convinced there were monsters lurking under their bed, that fairies visited their gardens, and that Father Christmas is real, things where there is no evidence? Do you simply accept it? Does it not make you believe that people can actually do better or recognise that such supposed truths threaten the very idea of truth itself and by extension knowing our world and who we are? I think that most people actually care about what is true or not and care that other people recognise it true. When preposterous ideas abound in society that are unfortunately held in high esteem it seems necessary to demonstrate how silly they are.

[IOM_Muslim]

You're quite right in commenting that the Islamic societies of old were more advanced than those in Europe in many respects. But it is argued that Islam was understood differently and taken less seriously, less 'fundamentally' than it is today in the backward theocracies of the Middle East. The hold of Islam over the minds of the people of the Middle East has meant there was no enlightenment in these societies. The situation vis a vis Western Europe was reversed.

 

Since the death of the prophet Muslims have been steadily getting more and more detached from their religion as a whole. The opposite of what you said. The further you go back the more seriously the Muslims took their religion. They were more attached to their religion and followed it a lot more strictly than people do today. Obviously Islam didn't have a "hold over the minds of the people" in the negative way you implied, because Muslims created a golden era of scientific knowledge and understanding. People were sent from different countries to Islamic Spain to learn science from the Muslims, so clearly Islam does not prevent people from thinking otherwise we would all have been in the dark ages. But in reality only the christians were in the dark ages, because of christianity and the Muslims bailed them out by sharing their knowledge. The reason the Muslim countries are in such a bad state these days is because of british colonialism, puppet governments and infiltration into the Muslim societies to spread corruption and divide the people. Oh and centuries of war, sanctions and external and internal corruption. But I guess that's the thanks Muslims get for teaching the christians algebra, biology, cosmology, medicine, navigation... etc. for a complete list; read a history book. Christians have been good at taking every inch of what they can get without a second thought for human life. Just look at what they did to the native americans, south Americans, Australians etc etc.

[IOM_Muslim]

Not childish. What would you do if almost every adult in society was convinced there were monsters lurking under their bed, that fairies visited their gardens, and that Father Christmas is real, things where there is no evidence? Do you simply accept it? Does it not make you believe that people can actually do better or recognise that such supposed truths threaten the very idea of truth itself and by extension knowing our world and who we are? I think that most people actually care about what is true or not and care that other people recognise it true. When preposterous ideas abound in society that are unfortunately held in high esteem it seems necessary to demonstrate how silly they are.

 

If adults believed that santa was real I wouldn't waste my time discussing it with them about how he doesn't exist and talking about how bad santa is etc etc. I would just let them get on with it. I wouldn't waste my time and effort talking about something that I know doesn't exist.

 

There is evidence for the existence of God. Plenty. Religious people see plenty of evidence, but atheists see none. I personally have enough evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Islam is true and that God exists. The only thing that stands in the way are ppls bias and lack of true open-minded thinking. People just want to be right too much rather than wanting to truly seek the truth in every avenue.

 

Belief in God has existed in the majority since pre-history. Atheism, however, has only ever been the minority. Or at least it certainly is in the minority today. So really belief in God is normal. In the literal sense of the word.

 

Also if, as an atheist, you are so sure life is an accident and when you die it's the end, that makes everything in your life irrelevant. It's like if u lose your memory of the last 24 hours, its irrelevent whether it was full of pleasure or full of pain because it's as if it didn't happen. Same with dying and no longer being alive or concious. It makes your entire life and everything in it irrelevent, and, by extension, everyone elses. Imagine if our sun exploded tomorrow and all humans died and Earth was turned to dust. everything mankind ever acheived will mean nothing. so why, then, does it matter to atheists so much what people believe? As far as you are concerned we are an accident, we will be here for a while, then we will be non-existant again like we always had been previously. So, from your perspective, it is irrelevant what I, or any other religious person, believes.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

If adults believed that santa was real I wouldn't waste my time discussing it with them about how he doesn't exist and talking about how bad santa is etc etc. I would just let them get on with it. I wouldn't waste my time and effort talking about something that I know doesn't exist.

I would. I would have concerns over their ability to assess what is true or not. I would wonder how much I can rely relate to someone who is so detached from reality. But the fact that some beliefs are offensive would be another problem for me and I do find Christianity and Islam to be pretty noxious beliefs.

 

There is evidence for the existence of God. Plenty. Religious people see plenty of evidence, but atheists see none. I personally have enough evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Islam is true and that God exists. The only thing that stands in the way are ppls bias and lack of true open-minded thinking. People just want to be right too much rather than wanting to truly seek the truth in every avenue.

I think the issue is about the quality of the evidence we would seek in determining whether a deity, or in your case a particular deity exists or not. I don't know what you find is good evidence. In the case of Allah, I would very surprised if you had what I would call sufficient evidence to prove his existence. And this is all aside from recognising the very mortal creation of Islam and Allah, as being a rather badly hashed out plagiarism of Christianity and Allah being an amalgamation of Yahweh and storm god.

 

 

Belief in God has existed in the majority since pre-history. Atheism, however, has only ever been the minority. Or at least it certainly is in the minority today. So really belief in God is normal. In the literal sense of the word.

Absolutely. Belief in deities and the supernatural is a very human response to what we don't understand. It seems to be a primitive response to dealing with what we don't know and satisfying our needs and desires in particular respects. But the fact that something is normal does not mean it is correct or good.

 

Also if, as an atheist, you are so sure life is an accident and when you die it's the end, that makes everything in your life irrelevant.

No, it doesn't at all. It makes life precious and motivates people to find meaning and purpose. I wouldn't call my interactions with other people; my learning and becoming more aware of how the world works and my short role in that irrelevant. I am a part of something. My existence might seem irrelevant to future generations or people. I may be forgotten. But I would be dead then and have little concern for such things now.

 

It's like if u lose your memory of the last 24 hours, its irrelevent whether it was full of pleasure or full of pain because it's as if it didn't happen. Same with dying and no longer being alive or concious. It makes your entire life and everything in it irrelevent, and, by extension, everyone elses. Imagine if our sun exploded tomorrow and all humans died and Earth was turned to dust. everything mankind ever acheived will mean nothing.

What do you mean by 'mean nothing'? If the human race were obliterated and everything created disappeared then the issue of meaning would itself be irrelevant because there would be no people to give meaning to it. In the here and now individuals and communities give meaning to their lives and existence without the need to look for more outside of their lives other than the hope that future generations might be able to survive.

 

so why, then, does it matter to atheists so much what people believe? As far as you are concerned we are an accident, we will be here for a while, then we will be non-existant again like we always had been previously. So, from your perspective, it is irrelevant what I, or any other religious person, believes.

Because while I do live and interact with other people I would like to be around people who are interested in what is real or not, what is true or not. Without recognition of the truth as established as best it can be by science we cannot know who we are, how the universe works, and what is real or not. It is therefore very important what people believe or do not believe. Furthermore, those with particulars beliefs are given to trying to indoctrinate their childish with irrational ideas and beliefs, shaping their vulnerable minds to be as stultified as their parents. And in most countries, the religion has a massive effect on how people conduct their lives and how they think on many matters. Yet it is based on faith. This is to say nothing of the effect that religion has on societies where we witness Sharia Law being conducted in other countries, adherence to silly customs as advocated in the Koran, the effect Christianity has on the liberal democratic governments, and how religion shapes peoples political opinions.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

You're quite right in commenting that the Islamic societies of old were more advanced than those in Europe in many respects. But it is argued that Islam was understood differently and taken less seriously, less 'fundamentally' than it is today in the backward theocracies of the Middle East. The hold of Islam over the minds of the people of the Middle East has meant there was no enlightenment in these societies. The situation vis a vis Western Europe was reversed.

 

Since the death of the prophet Muslims have been steadily getting more and more detached from their religion as a whole. The opposite of what you said. The further you go back the more seriously the Muslims took their religion. They were more attached to their religion and followed it a lot more strictly than people do today. Obviously Islam didn't have a "hold over the minds of the people" in the negative way you implied, because Muslims created a golden era of scientific knowledge and understanding. People were sent from different countries to Islamic Spain to learn science from the Muslims, so clearly Islam does not prevent people from thinking otherwise we would all have been in the dark ages. But in reality only the christians were in the dark ages, because of christianity and the Muslims bailed them out by sharing their knowledge. The reason the Muslim countries are in such a bad state these days is because of british colonialism, puppet governments and infiltration into the Muslim societies to spread corruption and divide the people. Oh and centuries of war, sanctions and external and internal corruption. But I guess that's the thanks Muslims get for teaching the christians algebra, biology, cosmology, medicine, navigation... etc. for a complete list; read a history book. Christians have been good at taking every inch of what they can get without a second thought for human life. Just look at what they did to the native americans, south Americans, Australians etc etc.

I do disagree. There is a fundamentalism seen today in Islam and quality of adherence that is quite different from what was seen in the Caliphate, where I would argue that religious belief was given its place to allow the development of scientific enquiry and advancements. Today Islam has a more dominant and authoritative role in these modern societies.

 

You seem to be attributing the developments of science in the 'Dark Ages' by Muslims to Islam and also attributing all the above acts by Christians to Christianity without recognition that other motives are responsible.

[espylacopa]

 

This thread is deep, yo.

 

I'm a firm believer in personal choice, if someone chooses to worship a different invisible man to you, if any at all, then that's fine, so long as they bring no harm to anyone else.

 

An a different note, I love Christian fundies. I can't tell if it is serious or fully tongue in cheek. Someone please clear this up for me?

[manshimajin]

Also if, as an atheist, you are so sure life is an accident and when you die it's the end, that makes everything in your life irrelevant. It's like if u lose your memory of the last 24 hours, its irrelevent whether it was full of pleasure or full of pain because it's as if it didn't happen. Same with dying and no longer being alive or concious. It makes your entire life and everything in it irrelevent, and, by extension, everyone elses.

I'll leave the theological debate to you and LDV...but your comment above is your own perspective - i.e. you should have begun by saying 'in my opinion'.

 

IMO I cannot see that to be an atheist automatically makes your life 'irrelevant' or 'everyone elses' irrelevant either. If the only point in life was somehow to survive into a future life that would also make your current existence pretty pointless as it would just be a 'waiting room' for the next life. Relevance is also about what you do when you are here.

 

People have it within themselves to contribute to society and the well being of others whether they are religious or atheist. Some choose to do so and some, including those who espouse religion, don't.

 

One suspects that a lot more evil has been done by those espousing 'religion' to their fellow believers (e.g.Catholic and Protestants, Sunnis and Shias) and to other religious groups (e.g forced conversion) than has been done by atheists.

[pongo]

how many infidel kaffir bastids were in Iraq or Afghanistan before 11th September 2001?

 

Very few people believe that Iraq was responsible for those attacks.

 

How many Al Qaeda were in Iraq before the cooked - up war? That would be a better question - because the chaos which the invasion created left a space for them and the war itself drew people to their ideas. Iraq made them stronger. Iraq was about the gradual breakdown of relations over several decades between the US and its former allies within Iraq.

 

The NATO war in Afghanistan is a much more complicated quagmire.

[censorship]

If adults believed that santa was real I wouldn't waste my time discussing it with them about how he doesn't exist and talking about how bad santa is etc etc. I would just let them get on with it. I wouldn't waste my time and effort talking about something that I know doesn't exist.

I would. I would have concerns over their ability to assess what is true or not. I would wonder how much I can rely relate to someone who is so detached from reality.

May I ask why? What difference does it make to you what someone believes? I would understand you taking an interest if that person was forcing their beliefs on others in a detrimental way, but why do you not think people shouldn't be free to choose what they wish to believe in?

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I am not talking about whether people SHOULD be free to believe what they want.

Nobody can really stop anyone believing what they want anyway.

 

The issue is about the problems that are caused from others having irrational beliefs. If they are beliefs that have an impact on how people think about others and their world, but are based on no evidence then it would be a better thing is those people didn't have them. I would be happier in the knowledge that people are not living their lives based on delusions.

 

When so many people have irrational beliefs it degrades the importance of truth. It is the search for truths that allow human society to progress in terms of their knowledge of the world. I also think that belief in the afterlife also degrades the value of THIS life.

 

Additionally, we unfortunately live in a society where the deluded are applauded for their faith. The majority of people find it admirable that people have religious faith, regardless of the belief system. That is something that ought to change. Credulous should not be 'praised'.

 

And then of course you have those who push their beliefs on others. I don't think any parent is justified in brainwashing their children about Islam or Christianity for example. It is the mental abuse of the vulnerable.

 

I do also think these religions are immoral.

 

Overall it matters because you don't want to see other people in society live their life or think differently based on ignorance and superstition. It matters to me what other people think.

[Evil Goblin]

I would wonder how much I can rely relate to someone who is so detached from reality

Pots & Kettles!

[nomad]

well it is spoken in the qoran that allah was a slave of jesus so there you go muslims and christians should just get on