Manx Nationalism Is Worrying

[Charles Flynn]

Thank you for this....

 

There must be balance between passion and reason but politics is not an exact science. We do not want the whole fabric of society being ripped up but now and again anger at what is going on - incompetence, unfairness etc causes new groupings and individuals to initiate changes and policies which can be beneficial. It seems to me that we are at a time when some of our long cherished ideas on this island will need to be amended. Perhaps the young people can see this more clearly than the establishment can even if as yet they have not formulated precise policies.

[%age]

" Replying to Manx Nationalism Is Worrying"

 

Manx Mafia-ism is far more worrying than Manx Nationalism can ever be.

 

The Manx breed of greed is in a league of its own.

 

Greed with a nasty, nasty twist....

[VinnieK]

We do not want the whole fabric of society being ripped up but now and again anger at what is going on - incompetence, unfairness etc causes new groupings and individuals to initiate changes and policies which can be beneficial.

 

I agree entirely, but I'd argue that this is not one such group. As is often the case in regional nationalism, Mannin Aboo looks more like a cause in search of an opportunity, rather than a true reaction or solution to current affairs. I'm sure that things like the reciprocal health agreement and the VAT business provided a tipping point, where privately held sentiment boiled over into the public eye, but I do doubt that they provided the impetuous for those sentiments. As such, their message does not necessarily tally with the nature of the challenges ahead, and requires scrutiny, if not outright skepticism.

 

Furthermore, and to labour a point I've already skirted around, if nationalist movements want to be taken seriously, they need to get their act together and provide the public with solid arguments for their cause and detailed plans for at least the most fundamental points of their reform. It's not enough to shout "Mannin seyr!" and offer vague commitments to establishing a republic based on a written constitution or what have you: a coherent plan for institutional structures, economics and reform, justified by due consideration and analysis has to be in place already and the public given the opportunity to discuss it and decide for themselves before any action is taken or even before such a movement is placed in a position of power. That the nationalist movement on the Island has thus far failed to do this, instead prefering to rely on sloganeering, cloying sentimentality, and half formed policy statements is precisely the reason why they have so miserably failed both themselves and the Island for the past fifty years or so.

 

It's also why I suspect that Mannin Aboo are less than serious in their commitment to such issues or the welfare of the Island in general, why I believe their cause deserves a sceptical eye more than a pat on the head, and why in due time they too will fail and fade into the same kind of embittered obscurity as has Mec Vannin over the years.

[Charles Flynn]

Your reasons are sound. Obviously few will be attracted to a group who have not thought out their policies and what would happen if they are implemented. Most people usually go for evolution not revolution. But what will it be this time?

 

To change the Isle of Man so that long standing ties are almost completely severed would indeed be revolutionary. However there is no doubt that our relationship to the UK is changing in a way which would appear to be very unfair, indeed brutal from the island's point of view. A 25% reduction of income could be catastrophic. The ending of the reciprocal health agreement will be very distressing to individuals who are less well off and those with serious medical conditions as well as to the population at large living on this island and those who wish to visit us for whatever reason. The effect on what some see as an alternative to the finance sector i.e. the tourist industry could be ruinous.

 

The main point I would wish to make is that the young people who are passionate about the island and who want to see it standing more on its three legs do need to be cherished and should be aware of all the arguments so that their enthusiasm

and efforts will be for the good of our people whom I regard as all the residents not just a small sector with vested interests.

 

Let them talk to a wide assortment of people and then they can make their minds up on what is possible as we stand at the cross roads of where we should go for justice, fairness and the general well being of our small island nation.

[oldmanxfella]

I'd prefer that passion to be a manifestation of conviction arising from due consideration and reasoned argument, rather than reason and thought being used to justify what looks like a knee jerk position long after it's adopted. This is especially the case when we're talking about something as important and as monumental a change as the constitutional status of an entire people.

 

Its no different to what's happening in the UK with the BNP and the surge of 'nationalism'. The good times are over so what you get is a bunch of ill educated dickheads blaming everyone else for the fact that a bunch of ill educated dickheads can't get jobs anymore, so all we get is a backlash against 'immigrants' as it must be their fault. Its not rocket science. Its very sad. Its not nationalism its protectionism on the basis that job opportunities for inbeciles tend to dry up in recessions.

Edited January 9, 2010 by oldmanxfella

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I applaud the guts of the young people for standing up for what they believe even if they upset others.

I don't applaud anyone who has the guts to stand up for what they believe in. I wouldn't applaud a young member of a political party, for example. Or a young outspoken religious person. I assume you mean that you admire their courage, rather than applaud.

Applaud:

 

1. To express approval of (someone or something) especially by such clapping.

2. To commend highly; praise:

 

LDV, you really can be a witnit.

Applaud implies approval and admire does not. I think my point was made very clearly. Edited January 9, 2010 by La_Dolce_Vita

[bluemonday]

To change the Isle of Man so that long standing ties are almost completely severed would indeed be revolutionary. However there is no doubt that our relationship to the UK is changing in a way which would appear to be very unfair, indeed brutal from the island's point of view. A 25% reduction of income could be catastrophic. The ending of the reciprocal health agreement will be very distressing to individuals who are less well off and those with serious medical conditions as well as to the population at large living on this island and those who wish to visit us for whatever reason. The effect on what some see as an alternative to the finance sector i.e. the tourist industry could be ruinous.

 

The main point I would wish to make is that the young people who are passionate about the island and who want to see it standing more on its three legs do need to be cherished and should be aware of all the arguments so that their enthusiasm

and efforts will be for the good of our people whom I regard as all the residents not just a small sector with vested interests.

 

Let them talk to a wide assortment of people and then they can make their minds up on what is possible as we stand at the cross roads of where we should go for justice, fairness and the general well being of our small island nation.

 

The simple fact is that the IOM was trousering money it wasn't actually earning.

Were the government not aware of that?

I suspect they were and they knew it was an imbalance in their favour.

 

The health agreement seems to be a reaction to overcharging elsewhere.

All simple business decisions based on the figures.

 

The tourist industry will never be what it once was and as a cogent alternative to the FS is a non starter now.

 

What is apparent now and should have been understood for a good few years is that the present set up is a bloated leech that has grown on the backs of the good times and ruled by self interest. Pockets have been well and truly lined and money frittered away on grandiose projects and ego trips.

 

As for young people, usually ignored and then patronised occasionally.

Yes good luck to the 'novus ordo' but meaningful practical proposals are needed not empty rhetoric.

When that happens, I'm sure many will support them in clearing away the dross.

 

It needs doing.

[jimbms]

I'd prefer that passion to be a manifestation of conviction arising from due consideration and reasoned argument, rather than reason and thought being used to justify what looks like a knee jerk position long after it's adopted. This is especially the case when we're talking about something as important and as monumental a change as the constitutional status of an entire people.

 

Its no different to what's happening in the UK. The good times are over so what you get is a bunch of ill educated dickheads blaming everyone else for the fact that a bunch of ill educated dickheads can't get jobs anymore. Its not rocket science. Its very sad. Its not nationalism its protectionism on the basis that job opportunities for inbeciles tend to dry up in recessions.

I would say a lot of times it can be the opposite, i.e. a bunch of over educated dickheads who think they are too good for menial jobs blaming everyone else for the fact they have no jobs anymore because companies cannot afford to now take on the higher paid/educated dickheads and the only jobs open to them are menial ones they think are beneath them. Remember job opportunities for the higher paid over educated also tend to dry up in a recession, after all we always need shit cleaners, refuse collectors, drivers, shop assistants, etc, but over paid investment bankers are fuck all use when nobody has spare cash. But in saying that I suppose with the type of degrees a lot come out of uni with I suppose ill educated dickheads fits good, after all what use is a degree in Roman architecture, media studies or travel and hospitality management when there is on average 1 position for every 70 graduates on the subject. This I say from some experience, my sons engineering degree was dropped due to lack of numbers, luckily he is now with an employer who is paying for him to complete it independently, whilst at the same uni they increased the numbers doing media studies travel and other such over subscribed courses, as someone said before we need good engineers, doctors, scientists etc not bank full of graduates of ancient Mongolian basket weaving. maybe this recession will teach those higher up to invest in the right type of education for our kids to ensure the future of industry and science before it all disappears to China or some third world country, Strix being a fine example, most is now in China due to the unavailability of skills here, then look at the length of time the adverts for stress engineers and cnc engineers has been in the job centre, why? because nobody is training them, universities are closing courses for them down, yet if an ad for travel management or a media position went in the job centre requiring a degree in the subject, over half the islands banking investment junior staff would be applying. Ok rant over no bugger will listen anyway.

[Twitch]

All good points Jimmbs.

[VinnieK]

This I say from some experience, my sons engineering degree was dropped due to lack of numbers, luckily he is now with an employer who is paying for him to complete it independently, whilst at the same uni they increased the numbers doing media studies travel and other such over subscribed courses,

 

Off topic, but which university was this? They don't usually close down courses with people still on them, they just close applications for the next year and run the degree until all current undergraduates have completed their studies. If, for whatever reason, they can't do this, then they typically arrange for a place to be allocated to their students at a different university.

 

At any rate, why didn't your son just transfer to a different university?

[Charles Flynn]

Well all of us know we are in an untenable position. Our aspirations of upward growth and perpetual prosperity have taken quite a knock. There is a worldwide economic downturn which has been dramatically worsened here because of the need for the UK government to look after its immediate concerns.

 

Students have been rushing like leemings into studies which are not really needed in such huge numbers. Engineers, mathematicians,scientists, economists are but sadly these courses have been sidelined. So many have degrees which have little value in the jobs market - only the exceptional or the lucky are guaranteed employment in their speciality.

 

So what does our future hold? Has anyone in Government really got any idea? Has anyone produced a comprehensive study of all the options? Possibly we can no longer afford the consultants! Even if such a study was completed would our Government have the courage to tell us the findings.

 

The present policy seems to be 'steady as she goes'.... down!

[VinnieK]

Students have been rushing like leemings into studies which are not really needed in such huge numbers. Engineers, mathematicians,scientists, economists are but sadly these courses have been sidelined.

 

This isn't quite the full picture. I remember reading that of the 60% of Engineering students who study accredited courses, only 29% of those (so just over 17% overall) choose to go into the Engineering profession once they graduate. In other words, even a large proportion of people who are interested in engineering enough to spend three or four years studying it aren't too fussed about a career in it. Arbitrarly limiting degree places on other courses isn't going to fix this, it just means less people will go to university overall.

 

Also, it's a bit of a push to say that mathematicians, or even scientists are needed in "huge" numbers. The vast majority of graduate level jobs out there require at most an A-level's worth of mathematics - unsurprisingly, the number of jobs that actually require a person to know their way around a Coxeter group or a soliton are few, and I suspect the same holds true of the sciences. I don't doubt that we could do with more STEM graduates, but to say they're needed in huge numbers is a hell of an exaggeration.

 

As an aside, looking around on graduate recruitment sites, it seems like the qualifications most in demand are business, marketing, and related degrees.

[pongo]

Media and content production and management in general is big business and is one of the areas in which the UK and Europe lead the world. It's economically hugely important. All that technology is going to be useless if there is nothing to put on it.

 

Whether all of the courses currently address all of the needs of the industry is, granted, a different matter.

 

Whilst maths, sciences and engineering specializations are hugely important - that is not to say that these degrees are inherently more useful than degrees in the arts or a broader more general education. Widgets are ultimately not necessarily any more or less economically useful than content.

 

The least broad candidates are going to be the ones who have essentially been trained in a specific rather than educated IMO. Education which is actually training is not education IMO and doesn't belong in universities.

[Charles Flynn]

It is a shame so many students study courses and then abandon the subject. Hopefully there is some residual benefit in knowing about say engineering and becoming a banker. The responsibility to some extent must lie with those who forecast the projected need for graduates.

 

I wonder whether in four years time many of those who have commenced business, marketing and related degrees will still be needed. I hope the forecasts are accurate.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

I would say a lot of times it can be the opposite, i.e. a bunch of over educated dickheads who think they are too good for menial jobs blaming everyone else for the fact they have no jobs anymore because companies cannot afford to now take on the higher paid/educated dickheads and the only jobs open to them are menial ones they think are beneath them...

Even those who are not intelligent should find a menial job to be beneath them when it comprises of their productive life (full-time job). Why should someone feel they should waste their mind and time being stupid doing something menial day in and day out. It's called self respect in recognising you should do better. Edited January 9, 2010 by La_Dolce_Vita