Mezeron & Steam Packet Master Thread

[jimbms]

The racket is not a nationalised company, nor is it even a Manx company as far as the shareholders and owners go so why the hell should the government do anything.

[Andy730]

The racket is not a nationalised company, nor is it even a Manx company as far as the shareholders and owners go so why the hell should the government do anything.

 

Exactly...

 

If the Steam Racket is struggling with what they are doing right now, why don't they drop the service to one sailing a day, i.e. sails out at 08:45, and arrives back here at 18:00. There would be a considerable fuel saving to be had.

 

If i saw right this morning, the Ben sailed from Douglas with nothing on the top deck... Could all be inside i guess...

Edited December 8, 2010 by Andy730

[Tugger]

I don't have the inside track on the numbers, but I would guess that the biggest cost that the Racket group has to deal with is interest repayments, and minimising trips doesn't address that point

[Manxman2000]

If the Steam Racket is struggling with what they are doing right now, why don't they drop the service to one sailing a day, i.e. sails out at 08:45, and arrives back here at 18:00. There would be a considerable fuel saving to be had.

 

If i saw right this morning, the Ben sailed from Douglas with nothing on the top deck... Could all be inside i guess...

Good idea

 

Although all the hauliers that collect trailers off the night boat would have to use Mezeron, still not a bad idea, will save money.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Manxman2000

[guzzi]

The racket is not a nationalised company, nor is it even a Manx company as far as the shareholders and owners go so why the hell should the government do anything.

 

Exactly...

 

If the Steam Racket is struggling with what they are doing right now, why don't they drop the service to one sailing a day, i.e. sails out at 08:45, and arrives back here at 18:00. There would be a considerable fuel saving to be had.

 

If i saw right this morning, the Ben sailed from Douglas with nothing on the top deck... Could all be inside i guess...

 

Next summer's timetable appears to show a reduction to two vessels, with Manannan covering both Irish and Liverpool crossings. On days when an Irish crossing is scheduled, there is only one return trip to Liverpool.

[Tempus Fugit]

 

Next summer's timetable appears to show a reduction to two vessels, with Manannan covering both Irish and Liverpool crossings. On days when an Irish crossing is scheduled, there is only one return trip to Liverpool.

 

sounds like the same as this year but they used 2 fastcraft to cover it

[guzzi]

 

Next summer's timetable appears to show a reduction to two vessels, with Manannan covering both Irish and Liverpool crossings. On days when an Irish crossing is scheduled, there is only one return trip to Liverpool.

 

sounds like the same as this year but they used 2 fastcraft to cover it

 

No, it's quite different. If you look at last July's timetable, there was a morning departure scheduled to Liverpool almost every day in July. Look at 2011, and there are 15 days in July when there is no morning departure scheduled to Liverpool.

 

Of course, Manannan & Snaefell both went sick mid-season, which did make the real world a bit different from the timetable.

Edited December 8, 2010 by guzzi

[Lost Login]

If the Steam Racket is struggling with what they are doing right now, why don't they drop the service to one sailing a day, i.e. sails out at 08:45, and arrives back here at 18:00. There would be a considerable fuel saving to be had.

 

If i saw right this morning, the Ben sailed from Douglas with nothing on the top deck... Could all be inside i guess...

Good idea

 

Although all the hauliers that collect trailers off the night boat would have to use Mezeron, still not a bad idea, will save money.

 

They probably cannot as it may put them in breach of the UA. This I think states that there must be about 935 return sailing to the North West per year. Looking from next years time table they do about 300 to Liverpool with the "fast craft" which leaves 635 to do over the year to do with the Ben. Knocking off days when they do not sale i.e Christmas then they basically have to sale 75% of the time twice daily with the Ben to meet the UA requirements. That is presuming they sail daily all other days.

 

Basically they probably have something like 80 or 90 sailings that they could cancel over a year.

[Andy730]

If the Steam Racket is struggling with what they are doing right now, why don't they drop the service to one sailing a day, i.e. sails out at 08:45, and arrives back here at 18:00. There would be a considerable fuel saving to be had.

 

If i saw right this morning, the Ben sailed from Douglas with nothing on the top deck... Could all be inside i guess...

Good idea

 

Although all the hauliers that collect trailers off the night boat would have to use Mezeron, still not a bad idea, will save money.

 

They probably cannot as it may put them in breach of the UA. This I think states that there must be about 935 return sailing to the North West per year. Looking from next years time table they do about 300 to Liverpool with the "fast craft" which leaves 635 to do over the year to do with the Ben. Knocking off days when they do not sale i.e Christmas then they basically have to sale 75% of the time twice daily with the Ben to meet the UA requirements. That is presuming they sail daily all other days.

 

Basically they probably have something like 80 or 90 sailings that they could cancel over a year.

 

So, that's the rules... BUT, who would do what if the Steam Racket didn't achieve what is written in the agreement?

[badlad]

I thought the UA is for use of the link span and not exclusive rights to ship freight to and from the port.Before signing the UA it might have been a good idea to explore the possibilitys of where competition may come from and how you would defend your position.Its blindingly obvious that freight can come and go just yards from where the Ben docks.I'm just suprised it has taken so long for this situation to come along.

As far as a level playing field goes then i wonder if Woodward wears only clothes that have been made by people who are paid the minimum wage to produce them.

[Lost Login]

If the Steam Racket is struggling with what they are doing right now, why don't they drop the service to one sailing a day, i.e. sails out at 08:45, and arrives back here at 18:00. There would be a considerable fuel saving to be had.

 

If i saw right this morning, the Ben sailed from Douglas with nothing on the top deck... Could all be inside i guess...

Good idea

 

Although all the hauliers that collect trailers off the night boat would have to use Mezeron, still not a bad idea, will save money.

 

They probably cannot as it may put them in breach of the UA. This I think states that there must be about 935 return sailing to the North West per year. Looking from next years time table they do about 300 to Liverpool with the "fast craft" which leaves 635 to do over the year to do with the Ben. Knocking off days when they do not sale i.e Christmas then they basically have to sale 75% of the time twice daily with the Ben to meet the UA requirements. That is presuming they sail daily all other days.

 

Basically they probably have something like 80 or 90 sailings that they could cancel over a year.

 

So, that's the rules... BUT, who would do what if the Steam Racket didn't achieve what is written in the agreement?

 

Presumably if in breach then the Govt could require that the SP remedy the breach, demand compensation or revoke the agreement depending on what the provisions in the agreement state.

[Andy730]

If the Steam Racket is struggling with what they are doing right now, why don't they drop the service to one sailing a day, i.e. sails out at 08:45, and arrives back here at 18:00. There would be a considerable fuel saving to be had.

 

If i saw right this morning, the Ben sailed from Douglas with nothing on the top deck... Could all be inside i guess...

Good idea

 

Although all the hauliers that collect trailers off the night boat would have to use Mezeron, still not a bad idea, will save money.

 

They probably cannot as it may put them in breach of the UA. This I think states that there must be about 935 return sailing to the North West per year. Looking from next years time table they do about 300 to Liverpool with the "fast craft" which leaves 635 to do over the year to do with the Ben. Knocking off days when they do not sale i.e Christmas then they basically have to sale 75% of the time twice daily with the Ben to meet the UA requirements. That is presuming they sail daily all other days.

 

Basically they probably have something like 80 or 90 sailings that they could cancel over a year.

 

So, that's the rules... BUT, who would do what if the Steam Racket didn't achieve what is written in the agreement?

 

Presumably if in breach then the Govt could require that the SP remedy the breach, demand compensation or revoke the agreement depending on what the provisions in the agreement state.

 

Interesting...

 

That could lead to all sots of options and possibilities...

[piebaps]

I thought the UA is for use of the link span and not exclusive rights to ship freight to and from the port.Before signing the UA it might have been a good idea to explore the possibilitys of where competition may come from and how you would defend your position.Its blindingly obvious that freight can come and go just yards from where the Ben docks.I'm just suprised it has taken so long for this situation to come along.

As far as a level playing field goes then i wonder if Woodward wears only clothes that have been made by people who are paid the minimum wage to produce them.

 

It is just for the link span. They did consider competition but didn't see Mezeron coming. Remember that craning containers on a small scale like this is a bit "retro". IOMSP never seriously considered a challenge from someone operating Mezeron's model.

 

Remember too that there are savings the other end in terms of haulage costs from the distribution centres to the docksides. when taken together, it amounts to a bigger saving.

 

Old style crane vs Ro/Ro

IOM crew wages v wogga wogga land crew wages

Short haul to Liverpool v Longer haul to Heysham

 

Five years ago when the world's economy was a happier place, these smaller vessels were much more expensive to charter too. Now they're prostituting themselves for business!

 

Remember that the likes of Tesco are just corporate juggernauts. despite their ads etc, they are only interested in profit and don't look at the bigger picture. If IOMSP go under, Mezeron will have a freight monopoly, nobody will be running a passenger service and they'll be back where they started.

 

Competition can only work where there is economy of scale. Where there's a votal service at stake, I'd personally rather have the state sanctioned monopoly and pay the relevant price.

 

Mind you, if IOMSP became so greedy that other operators were able to use "old school" methods and still be profitable then I can't help not feeling sorry for them.

[Barrie Stevens]

I thought the UA is for use of the link span and not exclusive rights to ship freight to and from the port.Before signing the UA it might have been a good idea to explore the possibilitys of where competition may come from and how you would defend your position.Its blindingly obvious that freight can come and go just yards from where the Ben docks.I'm just suprised it has taken so long for this situation to come along.

As far as a level playing field goes then i wonder if Woodward wears only clothes that have been made by people who are paid the minimum wage to produce them.

 

It is just for the link span. They did consider competition but didn't see Mezeron coming. Remember that craning containers on a small scale like this is a bit "retro". IOMSP never seriously considered a challenge from someone operating Mezeron's model.

 

Remember too that there are savings the other end in terms of haulage costs from the distribution centres to the docksides. when taken together, it amounts to a bigger saving.

 

Old style crane vs Ro/Ro

IOM crew wages v wogga wogga land crew wages

Short haul to Liverpool v Longer haul to Heysham

 

Five years ago when the world's economy was a happier place, these smaller vessels were much more expensive to charter too. Now they're prostituting themselves for business!

 

Remember that the likes of Tesco are just corporate juggernauts. despite their ads etc, they are only interested in profit and don't look at the bigger picture. If IOMSP go under, Mezeron will have a freight monopoly, nobody will be running a passenger service and they'll be back where they started.

 

Competition can only work where there is economy of scale. Where there's a votal service at stake, I'd personally rather have the state sanctioned monopoly and pay the relevant price.

 

Mind you, if IOMSP became so greedy that other operators were able to use "old school" methods and still be profitable then I can't help not feeling sorry for them.

 

 

I see that Bowen of the Steampacket and Nautilus is still misleadingly banging on about Mezeron’s crew being paid less than the supposed internationally agreed rate.

 

When you charter a ship on time charter you are not the actual owner but you are the Disponent Owner. (Operator).

 

The wages are paid by the actual owners or their managers which apparently is Tschudi Ship Management of Tallin, Estonia. (Not Mezeron and Dohle)

 

I quote below from the Time Charter form of the New York Produce Exchange which, along with the Baltime and Gentime is a standard contract (Charter) for time chartering a ship. (These charter forms are used globally)

 

On balance I estimate that Mezeron could easily get away with paying about £250,000 a month for its two container ships compared to the ten of millions paid by the Steampacket.

 

But Mezeron is only committed to the owners it charters from and not to the Isle of Man as it could redeliver the ships at the end of their charter hire period if it wanted to.

 

Owners (The owners in Estonia and not Mezeron) shall pay for:-

 

“All provisions, WAGES, consular shipping and discharge fees, of the Crew, shall pay for the insurance of the vessel also for all cabin, engine room and other necessary stores including boiler water and maintain her class and keep the vessel in a thoroughly efficient state in hull, machinery and equipment for and during the service”

 

This obligation supplements the Owner’s Warranty of Seaworthiness which basically means that the ship must be fit for the intended purpose and trade. ie This is what you want to make it like similar aspects of non-maritime law eg If a passenger fell down the stairs on “the Ben” and the stairs had a “trip” then the ship is not “seaworthy”.

 

The charter may after the above section be supplemented by clauses making the owner responsible for:-

 

“Drinking water, lubricating oil and garbage dues” with “Inspection certificates necessary to comply with current requirements at ports of call and canals”.

 

The New York Produce Exchange’s Charter (NYPE 1993) also requires the owners to provide:-

 

“A full complement of officers and crew”.

 

The Gentime Charter Party (A more British influenced and international pro-forma document) lists the Owner’s obligations neatly in Clause 11 under the headings:

 

“Wages, stores, insurance on vessel, crew’s assistance, including documentation, deratisation (Shifting the long-tails!) and fines for smuggling”

 

Typical charter parties for time or period charter as opposed to voyage charter also stipulate that the Charterers (Mezeron or their nominees) shall do as follows:

 

“Charterers shall provide and pay for all the fuel except as otherwise agreed, port charges, pilotages, agencies, commissions and consular charges.”

 

In other words, Mezeron must pay for all the items specific for the trading of the vessel and which charterers (Mezeron) are responsible for.

 

If Mezeron orders the ship to carry cargo which hurts or damages the ship and or crew then Mezeron pays (The Master or Captain has certain powers to refuse if the Charter Party allows otherwise the ship must load and issue Bills of Lading for cargo loaded but this is a legal specialisation that takes a life-time to learn see the “Bible” Scrutton on Charter Parties and Bills of Lading Zzzzzzzzzzzz!)

 

Hire is the term for payment for using the ship for the agreed period. The New York Produce Exchange charter states that hire (I estimate as $3,500 day for the Mezeron ships) is paid “per calendar month”.

 

They usually delete this and say in US$ per day.

 

Hire is usuall paid under this charter party to include overtime of officers and crew.

 

Hire must be paid bang on the nail punctually. Owners have been known to withdraw a ship because the market suddenly went very firm for their type of tonnage and the charterers were a day or two late in getting the money to the right account.

 

Once an owner withdraws a ship it cannot go back on hire and the charter is ended.

 

Owners and charterers have been known to collude.

 

Charters also contain clauses to the following effect:-

 

The Master (Captain) shall:-

 

“prosecute his voyages with the utmost despatch”

 

That the Master (Captain):-

 

“shall be under the orders and directions of the charterers as regards employment” (of the ship not him or her these days!)

 

“The owners to remain responsible for the navigation of the vessel, insurance, crew and all other matters, same as when trading for their own account”.

 

The following services are usually included in the hire and shall be rendered by the Master, Officers and Crew without Charterers (Mezeron) paying any additional hire:-

 

Raising or lowering of cranes and/or gangways in preparation for loading and discharging.

 

Opening and closing of hatches

 

Opening and closing of hatches if faced with adverse weather.

 

Supervision for loading and discharging of cargo and for everything related thereto.

 

Maintaining sufficient electric power.

 

Shifting from berth to berth when loading and/or discharging.

 

Docking and undocking in connection with loading and/or discharging and/or bunkering (taking in fuel oil).

 

The ship is also responsible for loading and discharging if using the ship’s gear (The Mezeron chartered ships are gearless so shore cranes are used).

 

If the ship’s crew operate cranes the standard New York Produce Exchange charter allows for the Charterers (Mezeron) to pay US$ 5 per hour for the work but this usually means using the ship’s cranes/derricks.

 

The charterers are usually responsible for the loading, stowing and trimming of the cargo at their expense under the supervision of the ship’s Master (Captain) who is required to sign Bills of Lading as presented in accordance with the Mate’s (or Tally Clerk’s) receipts.

 

Most charterers try to add a clause saddling the Master (Captain) with “responsibility” for the above and this finances the entire City of London maritime law community and has done so since the Seventeenth Century!

 

So “shiver me timbers me old shipmates”.

 

Now you can see how Mezeron is able to get ships on the go for (in my estimate) a maximum of (converting to Sterling) £250,000 per month paid every 30 days or so in advance and for a period limited by the agreed duration of the charter ie three months, six months, nine months etc)

 

After the charter period expires either side is free to go their own way or re-charter as the case may be. Thus Mezeron has no commitment to the Isle of Man compared to the Steampacket’s obligations.

 

Mezeron does not pay the crew under time charter and it is not their responsibility. It is simply the business of ship owning and chartering.

 

Under these conditions the Steampacket is a dead duck being burdened not only with the purchase price but also with a commitment under the terms of the Linkspan User Agreement to make massive capital investment in ships to the tune of tens of millions.

 

Such investments represent a commitment to the Isle of Man. Mezeron is like a prostitute “Power without responsibility”.

 

But that is free trade and the freedom of the seas.

 

I think that you lot are in deep trouble over the long term.

 

Barrie Stevens.

[Barrie Stevens]

I thought the UA is for use of the link span and not exclusive rights to ship freight to and from the port.Before signing the UA it might have been a good idea to explore the possibilitys of where competition may come from and how you would defend your position.Its blindingly obvious that freight can come and go just yards from where the Ben docks.I'm just suprised it has taken so long for this situation to come along.

As far as a level playing field goes then i wonder if Woodward wears only clothes that have been made by people who are paid the minimum wage to produce them.

 

It is just for the link span. They did consider competition but didn't see Mezeron coming. Remember that craning containers on a small scale like this is a bit "retro". IOMSP never seriously considered a challenge from someone operating Mezeron's model.

 

Remember too that there are savings the other end in terms of haulage costs from the distribution centres to the docksides. when taken together, it amounts to a bigger saving.

 

Old style crane vs Ro/Ro

IOM crew wages v wogga wogga land crew wages

Short haul to Liverpool v Longer haul to Heysham

 

Five years ago when the world's economy was a happier place, these smaller vessels were much more expensive to charter too. Now they're prostituting themselves for business!

 

Remember that the likes of Tesco are just corporate juggernauts. despite their ads etc, they are only interested in profit and don't look at the bigger picture. If IOMSP go under, Mezeron will have a freight monopoly, nobody will be running a passenger service and they'll be back where they started.

 

Competition can only work where there is economy of scale. Where there's a votal service at stake, I'd personally rather have the state sanctioned monopoly and pay the relevant price.

 

Mind you, if IOMSP became so greedy that other operators were able to use "old school" methods and still be profitable then I can't help not feeling sorry for them.

 

 

I see that Bowen of the Steampacket and Nautilus is still misleadingly banging on about Mezeron’s crew being paid less than the supposed internationally agreed rate.

 

When you charter a ship on time charter you are not the actual owner but you are the Disponent Owner. (Operator).

 

The wages are paid by the actual owners or their managers which apparently is Tschudi Ship Management of Tallin, Estonia. (Not Mezeron and Dohle)

 

I quote below from the Time Charter form of the New York Produce Exchange which, along with the Baltime and Gentime is a standard contract (Charter) for time chartering a ship. (These charter forms are used globally)

 

On balance I estimate that Mezeron could easily get away with paying about £250,000 a month for its two container ships compared to the ten of millions paid by the Steampacket.

 

But Mezeron is only committed to the owners it charters from and not to the Isle of Man as it could redeliver the ships at the end of their charter hire period if it wanted to.

 

Owners (The owners in Estonia and not Mezeron) shall pay for:-

 

“All provisions, WAGES, consular shipping and discharge fees, of the Crew, shall pay for the insurance of the vessel also for all cabin, engine room and other necessary stores including boiler water and maintain her class and keep the vessel in a thoroughly efficient state in hull, machinery and equipment for and during the service”

 

This obligation supplements the Owner’s Warranty of Seaworthiness which basically means that the ship must be fit for the intended purpose and trade. ie This is what you want to make it like similar aspects of non-maritime law eg If a passenger fell down the stairs on “the Ben” and the stairs had a “trip” then the ship is not “seaworthy”.

 

The charter may after the above section be supplemented by clauses making the owner responsible for:-

 

“Drinking water, lubricating oil and garbage dues” with “Inspection certificates necessary to comply with current requirements at ports of call and canals”.

 

The New York Produce Exchange’s Charter (NYPE 1993) also requires the owners to provide:-

 

“A full complement of officers and crew”.

 

The Gentime Charter Party (A more British influenced and international pro-forma document) lists the Owner’s obligations neatly in Clause 11 under the headings:

 

“Wages, stores, insurance on vessel, crew’s assistance, including documentation, deratisation (Shifting the long-tails!) and fines for smuggling”

 

Typical charter parties for time or period charter as opposed to voyage charter also stipulate that the Charterers (Mezeron or their nominees) shall do as follows:

 

“Charterers shall provide and pay for all the fuel except as otherwise agreed, port charges, pilotages, agencies, commissions and consular charges.”

 

In other words, Mezeron must pay for all the items specific for the trading of the vessel and which charterers (Mezeron) are responsible for.

 

If Mezeron orders the ship to carry cargo which hurts or damages the ship and or crew then Mezeron pays (The Master or Captain has certain powers to refuse if the Charter Party allows otherwise the ship must load and issue Bills of Lading for cargo loaded but this is a legal specialisation that takes a life-time to learn see the “Bible” Scrutton on Charter Parties and Bills of Lading Zzzzzzzzzzzz!)

 

Hire is the term for payment for using the ship for the agreed period. The New York Produce Exchange charter states that hire (I estimate as $3,500 day for the Mezeron ships) is paid “per calendar month”.

 

They usually delete this and say in US$ per day.

 

Hire is usuall paid under this charter party to include overtime of officers and crew.

 

Hire must be paid bang on the nail punctually. Owners have been known to withdraw a ship because the market suddenly went very firm for their type of tonnage and the charterers were a day or two late in getting the money to the right account.

 

Once an owner withdraws a ship it cannot go back on hire and the charter is ended.

 

Owners and charterers have been known to collude.

 

Charters also contain clauses to the following effect:-

 

The Master (Captain) shall:-

 

“prosecute his voyages with the utmost despatch”

 

That the Master (Captain):-

 

“shall be under the orders and directions of the charterers as regards employment” (of the ship not him or her these days!)

 

“The owners to remain responsible for the navigation of the vessel, insurance, crew and all other matters, same as when trading for their own account”.

 

The following services are usually included in the hire and shall be rendered by the Master, Officers and Crew without Charterers (Mezeron) paying any additional hire:-

 

Raising or lowering of cranes and/or gangways in preparation for loading and discharging.

 

Opening and closing of hatches

 

Opening and closing of hatches if faced with adverse weather.

 

Supervision for loading and discharging of cargo and for everything related thereto.

 

Maintaining sufficient electric power.

 

Shifting from berth to berth when loading and/or discharging.

 

Docking and undocking in connection with loading and/or discharging and/or bunkering (taking in fuel oil).

 

The ship is also responsible for loading and discharging if using the ship’s gear (The Mezeron chartered ships are gearless so shore cranes are used).

 

If the ship’s crew operate cranes the standard New York Produce Exchange charter allows for the Charterers (Mezeron) to pay US$ 5 per hour for the work but this usually means using the ship’s cranes/derricks.

 

The charterers are usually responsible for the loading, stowing and trimming of the cargo at their expense under the supervision of the ship’s Master (Captain) who is required to sign Bills of Lading as presented in accordance with the Mate’s (or Tally Clerk’s) receipts.

 

Most charterers try to add a clause saddling the Master (Captain) with “responsibility” for the above and this finances the entire City of London maritime law community and has done so since the Seventeenth Century!

 

So “shiver me timbers me old shipmates”.

 

Now you can see how Mezeron is able to get ships on the go for (in my estimate) a maximum of (converting to Sterling) £250,000 per month paid every 30 days or so in advance and for a period limited by the agreed duration of the charter ie three months, six months, nine months etc)

 

After the charter period expires either side is free to go their own way or re-charter as the case may be. Thus Mezeron has no commitment to the Isle of Man compared to the Steampacket’s obligations.

 

Mezeron does not pay the crew under time charter and it is not their responsibility. It is simply the business of ship owning and chartering.

 

Under these conditions the Steampacket is a dead duck being burdened not only with the purchase price but also with a commitment under the terms of the Linkspan User Agreement to make massive capital investment in ships to the tune of tens of millions.

 

Such investments represent a commitment to the Isle of Man. Mezeron is like a prostitute “Power without responsibility”.

 

But that is free trade and the freedom of the seas.

 

I think that you lot are in deep trouble over the long term.

 

Barrie Stevens.

 

Tht's £250,000 per month for each ship in Sterling.