Israel vs. the rest of the world?

[Thomas Jefferson]

 

 

 

hamas shoud pay for damages they always provocking. or they never learn. not my taxes to pay.

Yes, but not with money -- the most senior leaders of Hamas should all be shot.

Along with vile people like this.

 

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/5612693

 

It's not difficult to take a person's words out of context to make it look like they're saying something they're not actually saying.

 

"Dr Mordechai Kedar said he was not suggesting such a tactic."

[spook]

Precisely.

[Chinahand]

I do find this debate a sad dialogue of the deaf.

 

I still basically feel that the two states solution is the only way this tragedy can be resolved.

 

A single secular state with a rigid separation of religion and state and right of residence/return for any Jew or Palestinian might work, but most on either side do not wish it and the demographics mean the safeguards to ensure a minority isn't dominated by a majority would make the constitution incredibly complex and not trusted.

 

In many ways its a shame - such a secular state would, if it worked, be a beacon of democracy, legal justice and cosmopolitan attitudes. But that is begging the question - "if it worked" - it probably wouldn't and the reality could be far worse.

 

I find Spook's attitude just odd (and not very altruistic) - non-Jewish communities have lived in Palestine for Millennia. Ashod's history as a non-Jewish city is far longer than it's brief occupations by various Jewish rulers.

 

TJ's claims about being as Manx as the hills, apply just as much to Palestinian families whether Christian or Arab - some of whom may have converted from Jewish families. The idea that the only people with a justified claim to living in the area are Jewish is really really myopic as far as I'm concerned.

 

I find it simply wrong to demand that these ancient, established populations should be forced to migrate to Jordan or where ever.

 

All the attempts to find an international solution have recognised there are two communities and tried to accommodate both. I often reverse the logic of those who deny that the sovereignty of the Palestinians was recognized in 1948. If the Jewish state had been invaded and annexed in 1948 by outside states, would that have extinguished Jewish claims to a state. Of course not, so why pretend that the Palestinian claim to sovereignty doesn't exist?

 

Yeah, there have been all sorts of proposals of how that sovereignty should be manifested - in an unitary state as part of a two state solution, in a single state compromise united with Israel, in a pan-Arab federation, in confederation with Jordan etc etc. But these proposals do not strip the Palestinian people of their rights to decide their sovereignty for themselves.

 

Israel denies this sovereignty and enforces economic and political control of the Palestinian areas creating a huge contrast between the full political rights it provides to its Arab citizens and the lack of rights given to the Palestinians. It is this contrast that does create resonances with Apartheid.

 

Is a two state compromise possible? The issues of land swaps, settlers, rights of return are huge huge barriers, as are water rights, and the simple demographics between Israels Arab and Jewish populations.

 

Goodness knows how it will end.

 

But I am pretty certain either side insisting the other side has no legitimate rights to sovereignty (as it seems Spook et al is doing in this thread) is no way to a peaceful future.

 

De-legitimizing the zealots, encouraging compromise and a live and let live approach seem the only way forward* ... but sadly this seems little in prospect in the tit-for-tat violence seemingly endlessly unfolding in the region.

 

Sad.

 

 

*My attitude is that most Israelis seem more willing to do this than most Palestinians, but then again they are in the far more advantageous negotiating position and have been less the victims of uncompromising propoganda from their leadership!

[spook]

A formal two state solution will make a bad situation a disaster. I really can't see any solution to the constant state of war that leaves Israel in existence where it presently is. Even the phrase Occupied Territories is not agreed by all parties as Fatah include the land that was within the pre 1967 borders in that category. It's a crying shame but this ongoing conflict will be won by lies not military might which is precisely what the outcome of the present defensive action being taken against hamas in Gaza it turning out to be.

[Chinahand]

It's a crying shame but this ongoing conflict will be won by lies not military might which is precisely what the outcome of the present defensive action being taken against hamas in Gaza it turning out to be.

i cannot parse this sentence, could you have another go at saying what you mean.

[Thomas Jefferson]

I prefer a one state solution -- a Jewish state.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Thomas Jefferson

[woolley]

Evil is easier defined after the fact. It is straightforward to describe an act as evil when we see it before our eyes. Much more difficult to apportion evil intent to the mind before the act. Who knows what lurks in the minds of men? After all, at the basic level we are all animals. How much of our consciousness and supposed free will is simply electrical impulse generated by our specific body chemistry? Quite a lot of it, I would venture.

[EORH]

I see Gawne has given another £50,000 away, with no political association to Gaza, and there were collections at the weekend in the streets for the same.

Lets hope it doesn't end up in Hamas's hands, but to be honest, why are we getting involved, it would not have happened had Hamas not fired rockets into Israel in the first place, just what does the rest of the world expect Israel to do?, if the same people attacked the UK, America, or any other nation, would they just sit by and not retaliate, I don't think so, what did Bush say after 9/11, it wasn't " oh well these things happen, they must have been upset by something".

[Vulgarian]

I see Gawne has given another £50,000 away, with no political association to Gaza, and there were collections at the weekend in the streets for the same.

Lets hope it doesn't end up in Hamas's hands, but to be honest, why are we getting involved, it would not have happened had Hamas not fired rockets into Israel in the first place, just what does the rest of the world expect Israel to do?, if the same people attacked the UK, America, or any other nation, would they just sit by and not retaliate, I don't think so, what did Bush say after 9/11, it wasn't " oh well these things happen, they must have been upset by something".

 

When you force people off their land, deny them basic rights, maltreat and oppress them, deliberately provoke and antagonise them into violent reaction in order to justify further abuse, what do you expect them to do?

[Lxxx]

 

 

I see Gawne has given another £50,000 away, with no political association to Gaza, and there were collections at the weekend in the streets for the same.

Lets hope it doesn't end up in Hamas's hands, but to be honest, why are we getting involved, it would not have happened had Hamas not fired rockets into Israel in the first place, just what does the rest of the world expect Israel to do?, if the same people attacked the UK, America, or any other nation, would they just sit by and not retaliate, I don't think so, what did Bush say after 9/11, it wasn't " oh well these things happen, they must have been upset by something".

When you force people off their land, deny them basic rights, maltreat and oppress them, deliberately provoke and antagonise them into violent reaction in order to justify further abuse, what do you expect them to do?

Just take it. Clearly.

[spook]

 

I see Gawne has given another £50,000 away, with no political association to Gaza, and there were collections at the weekend in the streets for the same.

Lets hope it doesn't end up in Hamas's hands, but to be honest, why are we getting involved, it would not have happened had Hamas not fired rockets into Israel in the first place, just what does the rest of the world expect Israel to do?, if the same people attacked the UK, America, or any other nation, would they just sit by and not retaliate, I don't think so, what did Bush say after 9/11, it wasn't " oh well these things happen, they must have been upset by something".

When you force people off their land, deny them basic rights, maltreat and oppress them, deliberately provoke and antagonist them into violent reaction in order to justify further abuse, what do you expect them to do?

If that was what Israel had done you would have a good point. However since it is NOT what Israel has done then you do NOT have a point. I have learned a very great deal about the history of modern Israel and encountered a very great deal of lying and misrepresentation that has been made by initially the PLO and now hamas.

 

To be honest my sympathies tended not to be with Israel but the more that I dug into what had taken place not only from pro Israel sites but from anti Israel sites and the looked into what had emerged after the contemporary reports it became clear that Israel were by far more sinned against than having sinned.

[Chinahand]

I prefer a one state solution -- a Jewish state.

But that isn't possible, and by ignoring half the picture is guaranteed to bring misery to ... the Jewish state.

 

Not exactly enlightened is it.

[Thomas Jefferson]

 

I prefer a one state solution -- a Jewish state.

But that isn't possible, and by ignoring half the picture is guaranteed to bring misery to ... the Jewish state.

 

Not exactly enlightened is it.

 

Half the picture? You are employing a false equivalency. That land is Jewish land and always has been. They've been in that land for 4,000+ years and the only reason they were ever departed from it is because they were forced out. Even the Muslims' own Qur'an says as much and that "Allah" gave it to the children of Israel. Also, you refer to the Palestinians as having been there since ancient times but no such people existed. You are literally making up history, creating a fictional people out of thin air. Arabs who have lived in the land became Arab Israelis. They are Arab Israelis, not Palestinian Israelis.

 

Most of the Arabs in the region are descended from a mass influx of cheap labour from the surrounding countries during the British Mandate. The only solution that I see is for a singular Jewish state, and for the Arab states to integrate refugees instead of perpetuating a deliberate refugee crisis. How many decades have Palestinian "refugees" been in Jordan, for example? Why in all that time have they been kept in refugee camps and not integrated? They are being kept as refugees so they can be used as pawns against Israel, to keep it an open wound and foster hatred.

 

It's already too late for the "west bank" to be part of another state alongside Israel, and Gaza isn't viable. Likewise, Israel without the west bank is not a viable state. A two state solution is not on the cards. A one state solution where they all join hands and sing kumbaya my lord is not on the cards either, for self-evident reasons. Either there is a Jewish state (where Arabs live....as already happens in Israel) or there is an Arab state (where Jews have been exterminated).

 

Nearly a million Jewish refugees fled the Arab countries between 1948 and 1972, and they were all integrated, most of them by Israel.

 

Of the 820,000 Jewish refugees between 1948 and 1972, more than 200,000 found refuge in Europe and North America while 586,000 were resettled in Israel - at great expense to the Israeli government, and without any compensation from the Arab governments who had confiscated their possessions. The majority of the Jewish refugees left their homes penniless and destitute and with nothing more than the shirts on their backs. These Jews, however, had no desire to be repatriated in the Arab World and little is heard about them because they did not remain refugees for long.

 

Source: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/talking/jew_refugees.html

 

Why aren't Israel-critics like yourself calling for a small Jewish state in Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Morocco, Syria, and Yemen, for the Jewish refugees who lost their homes there? Why is everything in your argument so one-sided against Jews and against Israel? Why, in your view, do Jews have less of a right to property ownership than Arabs?

Edited August 18, 2014 by Thomas Jefferson

[Truth Seeker]

IDF's Gaza assault is to control Palestinian gas, avert Israeli energy crisis.

 

"Since the discovery of oil and gas in the Occupied Territories, resource competition has increasingly been at the heart of the conflict, motivated largely by Israel's increasing domestic energy woes."

 

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jul/09/israel-war-gaza-palestine-natural-gas-energy-crisis

[spook]

What a load of tripe. ANYTHING but admit that the bombardment of Israel by a bunch of terrorist scum eventually reached the point when the inclusion of significantly larger missiles simply had to be faced down.

 

Not only that but twists put on what had been allegedly said in order to line up with the story that the teller wanted to be heard.

 

Truth Seeker?

 

Keep looking, you've got a lot more seeking to do and it would be best to look at truthful sources.