Abortion plight should shame us all? Really?

[John Wright]

2 hours ago, Gee Cee said:

"We as a society tolerate lawful killing"

"We pick and chose"

These must rank as some of the saddest comments ever posted on MF.

 

But it’s the truth.

Society decides when life is not valued and when life can be taken without legal consequences. Different societies and different times have different views, morally and legalistically.

War

suicide

assisted dying

death penalty

self defence

it even determines when life begins, or from when it should be protected, which legally may not be fertilisation, implantation or birth.

There is no absolute answer. There are religious, moral and legal views, which you may, or not, agree with. But generally the struggle is between ethical viewpoints and popular viewpoints.

Some times one prevails over the other. So Wolfenden was ethical and ahead of popular feeling, and it’s taken 60 years to get to same sex marriage, which is now popularly accepted. In the 1960’s there was a popular feeling against teddy boys and mod and rocker fights which resulted in emergency legislation about public order and knife crime. The problem was transient and had gone before the legislation, but we still have it.

[maynragh]

3 hours ago, Gee Cee said:

"We as a society tolerate lawful killing"

"We pick and chose"

These must rank as some of the saddest comments ever posted on MF.

 

That's not the saddest thing at all. 

The saddest thing is that we as a society (via our representatives) have passed laws to assist people in very difficult circumstances, but we as a society will not fund the services to ensure that care is given. That is the real tragedy, the real hypocrisy. 

[Gee Cee]

So having got themselves into "very difficult circumstances". These people then expect Joe Public to foot the bill for sorting the mess out.

Absolutely unbelievable.

 

[maynragh]

17 minutes ago, Gee Cee said:

So having got themselves into "very difficult circumstances". These people then expect Joe Public to foot the bill for sorting the mess out.

Absolutely unbelievable.

 

Well no... it seems that they cannot expect, because Joe Public seems to have decided to vote for government's who do not want to 'foot the bill' for caring enough to do anything to help - even to try and prevent the problem in the first place. Some people would say that empathy and altruism are the most basic foundation blocks of 'being human', and that not helping people is unbelievably inhumane, but there it is. 

[hissingsid]

The saddest thing, as per MR, some woman in Peel has made Xmas decorations in the style of the red and white woman who were feedin the politicians cake whilst conducting their campaign outside Tynwald.   Imagine hanging those on your Xmas tree, this was a dedicated news item btw.    Talk about commercialising Xmas it is politicalising it as well, hopefully only in Peel probably an incomer from Lower Foxdale.

 

[ballaughbiker]

Quote

So having got themselves into "very difficult circumstances". These people then expect Joe Public to foot the bill for sorting the mess out.

Absolutely unbelievable.

 

So this is a financial issue rather than "murder" or was that just forum hyperbole?

[Butterflies]

23 hours ago, Gee Cee said:

So having got themselves into "very difficult circumstances". These people then expect Joe Public to foot the bill for sorting the mess out.

Absolutely unbelievable.

 

This is very very stupid comment. Foot the bill? How do you think the costs for abortion (pills usually) compare to the cost of looking after pregnant women, medical staff for scans, midwives & doctors for birth, post-natal aftercare and then 18 years of schooling  

Abortion is by far the cheapest option. It's win win really.

[Declan]

23 hours ago, Gee Cee said:

So having got themselves into "very difficult circumstances". These people then expect Joe Public to foot the bill for sorting the mess out.

Absolutely unbelievable.

 

Joe Public chooses to foot the bill.

[Chinahand]

1 hour ago, Butterflies said:

This is very very stupid comment. Foot the bill? How do you think the costs for abortion (pills usually) compare to the cost of looking after pregnant women, medical staff for scans, midwives & doctors for birth, post-natal aftercare and then 18 years of schooling  

Abortion is by far the cheapest option. It's win win really.

It looks like we disagree about this. Though I totally support a woman’s right to choose I also think nearly every person can and does contribute to society in highly complex ways. Claiming some cost saving to society is to ignore the contribution every person makes- even the worst scrot may inspire some social reformer to work harder to improve society. 

The dao is a complex thing and Society shouldn’t see this issue in cost benefit terms - if a woman chooses differently society should welcome and support her and her child as being of value and regret the loss. Society fails when a woman cannot feel secure through out her pregnancy. 

[Roger Mexico]

1 hour ago, Chinahand said:

It looks like we disagree about this. Though I totally support a woman’s right to choose I also think nearly every person can and does contribute to society in highly complex ways. Claiming some cost saving to society is to ignore the contribution every person makes- even the worst scrot may inspire some social reformer to work harder to improve society. 

The dao is a complex thing and Society shouldn’t see this issue in cost benefit terms - if a woman chooses differently society should welcome and support her and her child as being of value and regret the loss. Society fails when a woman cannot feel secure through out her pregnancy. 

That's all true, but Butterflies was simply making the point that, even in its own (financial) terms, the argument GeeCee was making was a stupid one.  In reality most of those who use the "we shouldn't pay for abortions" are really saying that women should be punished for getting pregnant.

[Gee Cee]

It's not very often that I disagree with you Roger, but on this occasion I do.

There is the world of difference between punishing a woman for getting pregnant, and expecting her to face up to her responsibilities.

I expect people to face up to their responsibilities. At no point have I ever suggested that anyone should be punished.

 

[paswt]

12 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

That's all true, but Butterflies was simply making the point that, even in its own (financial) terms, the argument GeeCee was making was a stupid one.  In reality most of those who use the "we shouldn't pay for abortions" are really saying that women should be punished for getting pregnant.

Bit worse than that in  that some are saying that terminations should just not be allowed  because it offends them/ their religous  views

FWIW I think the woman should have the right to decide .

 

[Roger Mexico]

1 hour ago, Gee Cee said:

There is the world of difference between punishing a woman for getting pregnant, and expecting her to face up to her responsibilities.

I expect people to face up to their responsibilities. At no point have I ever suggested that anyone should be punished.

But she is facing her responsibilities - she's having an abortion.  She's deciding that she is unwilling or unable to have (and presumably raise) a baby at this time in her life and so taking action to change that situation.  Because we have a National Health Service, it's right that she shouldn't have to pay for that procedure, just as she wouldn't have to pay for the (much greater) cost of giving birth.  If you support one option being free then you should support both, or you are advocating her being punished for the decision she has made.

[Gee Cee]

I really do not see that a woman having an abortion, is facing up to her responsibilities. Far from it. Rather than facing up to her responsibilities, she is running away from them.

 

[paswt]

28 minutes ago, Gee Cee said:

I really do not see that a woman having an abortion, is facing up to her responsibilities. Far from it. Rather than facing up to her responsibilities, she is running away from them.

 

Why should you presume to instruct others how to conduct their lives .

I would not presume to instruct you how to conduct yours.

I do not respect those who advocate one should follow any religion  but I do tolerate them.

 Perhaps those who hold any religious views should afford those who have a contrary view the same courtesy.

Just saying