Living hope church again - teaching the kids

[llap]

44 minutes ago, the stinking enigma said:

I don't know many kids that could be converted within the space of a couple of hours. 

Unless a TV screen is involved. The number of people I know who've watched Zeitgeist and unquestionably believe the absolute nonsense in chapter one beggars belief.

[ballaughbiker]

Quote

I don't know many kids that could be converted within the space of a couple of hours.

Don't underestimate how quickly children can learn such principles. 

We had a muslim friend staying last weekend. She is as much an atheist as I am and downed quite a few Warsteiners whilst she was here yet she could not bear the idea of bacon being in the fridge where her food was kept never mind eating it.

She admits the loathing is totally irrational and put it down to being told at school that pigs are disgusting filthy creatures.

As her host I had no idea how much a bacon sandwich appeals when you can't have one.....

[llap]

There's nothing irrational about not wanting a piece of a rotting dead corpse next to your food in a fridge.

[Bellefield]

33 minutes ago, llap said:

There's nothing irrational about not wanting a piece of a rotting dead corpse next to your food in a fridge.

who said it was rotting?

[llap]

3 minutes ago, Bellefield said:

who said it was rotting?

I wasn't aware household refrigerators completely stopped corpses rotting? 

[monasqueen]

There's nothing wrong with bacon if it is from a circumcised pig.

[Bellefield]

Just now, llap said:

I wasn't aware household refrigerators completely stopped corpses rotting? 

they don't stop any food from rotting, so your comment doesn't make sense - you could apply it to all of the food in the fridge;

"There's nothing irrational about not wanting a piece of a rotting dead corpse next to your rotting food in a fridge"

[the stinking enigma]

1 hour ago, ballaughbiker said:

Don't underestimate how quickly children can learn such principles. 

We had a muslim friend staying last weekend. She is as much an atheist as I am and downed quite a few Warsteiners whilst she was here yet she could not bear the idea of bacon being in the fridge where her food was kept never mind eating it.

She admits the loathing is totally irrational and put it down to being told at school that pigs are disgusting filthy creatures.

As her host I had no idea how much a bacon sandwich appeals when you can't have one.....

Would you eat dogs or cats? 

[Chinahand]

I will never forget a cold Chinese day and being invited to warm my blood eating a chillie and dog meat hot pot at a street restaurant.

It was on the bone and strong tasting and the beer, green tea and hotpot combined into something quite wonderful.

I never had a chance to try cat - it's a genuine regret.

[quilp]

I tried Cat once but it left me feline odd.  

[newsnight]

Thank you for a very interesting post.

As I understand your position to be;

• ·         You have a close family member who together with her children is a member of the Living Hope Church in the IOM.
• ·          Although an atheist you do attend the Church on ‘special events’ in the company of your close family member and her children.
•             Your family member attends the Living Hope Church because they have a welcoming policy towards young children.
•       When you express your views on faith (or the absence of it?) the Church members are happy to accept your lack of faith because you have spent several years in considered thought and they recognised it was different from a closed minded approach which evangelicals usually assume to be

•       Based on hearsay, having no evidence upon which to make an informed judgment, you do not know for certain that the Church’s incursions into the Manx Schools was not to promote their religious beliefs, but you believe that the purpose was to promote “‘life skills’ trying to teach young people to have a certain respect for themselves and their bodies; trying to teach kids to be responsible for themselves and each other”.

•      You have no doubt that this is “loosely Christian” but although you are an atheist you don’t object to it being taught to your children.

•             You believe that the teaching described fit within a Western moral philosophy which in turn you say is foundational upon historical Christian teachings.

•       From exposure to the teachings as promulgated in the classroom by the Living Hope Church it is your hope “that my kids grow up with a degree of self-respect and don’t make regrettable life choices”. 

•            You believe that the Living Hope Church’s ‘life skills’ teachings which you think fit within a Western moral philosophy and is ‘loosely Christian’ will in some way assist with your desire not to become a Grandfather at the age of 45, not wishing to see your children become parents themselves when teenagers.
•            You don’t object as an atheist to ‘Creationism’ which is a bible literalist belief based upon an acceptance of the bible as a literal and unchanging explanation of the Universe and all living matter within it with the provision that it is not taught as being factual, but only as a ‘point of view’ in the expectation,’ that may help young people gain a degree of understanding of and respect for other cultures.      
•           You also have no objection to other religious dogma being taught as point of view with the proviso that it is not taught as being factual.

•      You know that the Living Hope Church is involved in social support involving victims of domestic violence and you wrote that in addition the Church is’ heavily involved in supporting the victims of domestic violence and many acts of support for families that are undergoing difficult periods for various reasons’.   

•           It is your belief (having no evidence) that the Church also undertakes and funds ‘work’ in Africa and South America but you don’t know any details of those undertakings or ‘work’.

•      You wrote that your close family member claims not be pressured into giving 10% of her income to the Church and your advice is whatever the amount donated to do so in cash.

•           You have reminded yourself that most established Christian Churches provide tied accommodation to their vicars / shamanists the Living Hope Church arraignment is to your mind ‘farcical’ and has promoted a perception in the public you have described as ‘dodgy as hell’.

•      Finally, you have decided that it is your belief that the Living Hope Church has no more influence over secular life than any other Church.

•              That you believe LHC has significantly less influence than the Anglican Church has and you agree that there should be no place in schools or Tynwald for the Church, without saying which Church should be excluded, but the implication being all should be excluded.
•        You think LHC is anomalous and although generally church attendance is in decline theirs is growing in strength and that is cause for people becoming frightened.
•       You are a little scared that people you consider rational and intelligent can have some very strange beliefs.You assert that LHC are more visible than other Churches as a result of regular attendance at Community events.  To the best of your knowledge and understanding the Living Hope Church has not been engaged in an organised crusade, nor has it issued fatwas, abused children or participated in child abuse and you find them to be no worse, and possibly in certain instances better than any other religious group
•           You are struggling to understand why the Living Hope Church is being singled out for condemnation when instead of doing that, secular society should be working to remove all religious organisations from influencing open society.

I won’t address your point’s ad seriatum instead as one atheist to another I offer the following information for yours and for others to consider.

Firstly, the Living Hope Church is affiliated with F12 equip restore advance which is obiter to Joshua Generation Church (JoshGen) http://www.four12global.com/about-us/our-history/

I recommend the South African Human Rights Commission investigative Report into matters involving the Joshua Generation Church.

If there is some doubt concerning the Living Hope Church Isle of Man and its connection to the F12 the link is provided http://www.livinghope.im/about

I also recommend to you  'Liars for Jesus Vol 1 author Chris Rodda', and 'Crucifying America, the unholy alliance between the Christian Right and Wall Street' by CJ Werleman as useful. There are many other publications that describe in depth the methodologies used by Christian Fundamentalists to proselytise, and such-like publications are burgeoning keeping in step with the fundamentalists activities.

Essentially, after examination of the evidence it is ether accepted, or not, that the Living Hope Church is part of a larger movement which is diametrically and unshakably opposed to a secular based society with the necessary legal limitations put upon religion necessary for that to exist.

It follows that to effect the change the fundamentalists need to have to the laws they must engage in political activities and promote whenever possible adherents to their beliefs into positions of political office.

They work tirelessly to influence the powerful in order to gain power.

You wrote that you struggle to understand why the LHC has been ‘singled out’ and you observed that it is a Church expanding its membership and that people are frightened as a result.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/theresa-may-general-election-christian-fundamentalism-gay-exorcism-homophobia-abortion-a7762561.html

The fact that as Prime Minister she has appointed Ministers and Junior Ministers who subscribe to the ‘faith’ of such Churches and hold a strong belief in the existence of Satan and Hell, demonic possession should, I suggest, cause grave concern in any rational thinking person.

That creationist bible believing politicians are in positions of power in any Government and especially those belonging to dominionist religious organisations have objectives involving the negation of Democracy itself. What is the extent of that influence in the Manx Government and its Departments, particulary in Education?

These organisations are not benign, although you have cited anecdotally that you believe the Living Hope Church to be so. I respectfully suggest that you should reconsider the evidence and the facts.

As atheists we accept that the absence of evidence is the basis for belief, believers not only do not require evidence; quite often they vigorously reject it.

We don’t believe, but stand upon requiring evidence to be persuasive to the acceptance of truth and the establishment of fact.

I have enjoyed, over many years, the fairground displays the Churches have staged in the UK, (and in America which is another thing entirely) in which various well-scrubbed and turned out (usually young) people are paraded to announce how ‘Jesus’ had ‘saved’ them from a life of drug degradation, sex working, and or homosexuality simply by the expediency of the power of prayer.

These manifestations of salvations are of course faked. This kind of show having originated in the USA and then re-written for a domestic audience plays very well to the believer wanting to believe.

Here in America the Churches orthodox and fundamentalist have extracted multi-billions of dollars out of Government year on year for a very long time.

The tax they don’t pay has made not only the Mormon Church worth billions, and you might want to do some research on the political donations the Churches have and do make to further their ‘faith based’ objectives in and outside of the USA?

Now thanks to the Republican majorities they have let rip and intend to supercharge those efforts. The real fight has just begun.

What the fundamentalist do in America today the rest of the world experiences tomorrow.

I reiterate, it is a dangerous mistake to underestimate them, it is ill-advised to ignore them, and above all don’t for one moment think that they are benign because you believe them to be so, I suggest the evidence is persuasive to prove that they are not.

Western Cape - Investigative Report - Joshua Church - 21 January 2016.pdf

[La Colombe]

Blimey, all he did was try a bit of Cat. 

[llap]

53 minutes ago, Bellefield said:

they don't stop any food from rotting, so your comment doesn't make sense - you could apply it to all of the food in the fridge;

"There's nothing irrational about not wanting a piece of a rotting dead corpse next to your rotting food in a fridge"

But bacon is a piece of a dead corpse. Quite different to a rotting broccoli.

[Bellefield]

4 minutes ago, llap said:

But bacon is a piece of a dead corpse. Quite different to a rotting broccoli.

yes it is a piece of a dead corpse, and broccoli is a piece of dead plant, so don't understand what your point is?  Are some dead things more flavoursome than others?

[Chinahand]

4 hours ago, The Lurker said:

In regards to the recent incursions into schools I am told but do not know for certain personally that the sessions where not religious education but in fact ‘life skills’ trying to teach young people to have a certain respect for themselves and their bodies; trying to teach kids to be responsible for themselves and each other. Whilst this is in no doubt loosely ‘Christian’ it is not something that I object to my kids being taught; it fits within our typically western moral philosophy (not surprising as this is based historically on Christian teachings) and I hope that my kids grow up with a degree of self-respect and don’t make regrettable life choices.

As you say it isn't really surprising that people respecting themselves, their bodies and others and being responsible for the same fits within western moral philosophy - it's pretty much universal - you could just as much say it is a part of Confucianism and Eastern moral philosophy too.

Christians often claim Christianity has some important role in the development of human morals - it shows a huge parochialism and lack of knowledge of moral systems which developed just as sophisticated ideas entirely without Christian influence.