monasqueen Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Everybody, but everybody, had a hand in slavery, including the elders of the villages that African slaves came from. Why restrict the vilification to those who trafficked them? In any case, that's history, which if we have been properly educated, we have learned form. What people should be dealing with now is current slavery, which is still rife worldwide, in sweat shops and elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Newbie Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share Posted July 13, 2020 5 minutes ago, monasqueen said: Everybody, but everybody, had a hand in slavery, including the elders of the villages that African slaves came from. Why restrict the vilification to those who trafficked them? In any case, that's history, which if we have been properly educated, we have learned form. What people should be dealing with now is current slavery, which is still rife worldwide, in sweat shops and elsewhere. Exactly Boo Hoo being a prime example which is being hounded by the media now (rightly so). You can’t re write history either. But publishing this now is just riding the current outrage wave IMHO. I’m well aware of our rather inglorious history in this area and so are most people I’d say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ďouglas Peel Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 7 hours ago, Lagman said: Oh, I think you know why. As has been previously discussed here, anything positive will left out - (such as from Josem - "If there's going to be any education of the history of the Isle of Man as it relates to slavery, then it should also be one that is based, in part, at the pride that our island produced a Medal of Honor winner for the Union in the American Civil War - William Garrett. A little more information is available online here and elsewhere: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/6136915/william-garrett This Manx-born man was literally awarded America's highest honor for his service in the literal war against slavery.") Then we have Mark Wilks freeing Samuel from slavery. etc. William Kennish (Who's son also fought for the north in the war) risked his life trying to save a black man he was exploring with. http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/iomnhas/v062p181.htm All of these things will be ommitted/forgotten even though they are already known "Isle of Man historic connections with slavery" for propaganda purposes such as in the Manx newspapers article (that you aren't allowed to comment on) - you can't undermine with positive things. We've known about the people named for over a century, it mentions 80 Manx captains but provides no evidence. Lets see how Manx these people were, most of the "Manx smugglers" turned out not to be from here as George Moore whinged about. - http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/iomnhas/v044p640.htm "In the latter half of the seventeenth century, as a consequence of the evergrowing trade between the western British ports and America, together with such fortuitous influences as the Great Plague and the Fire of 1666, there was some dispersal of merchants from the City of London. According to Bullock, at that time a number of commercial adventurers made a settlement in Man, having realised the opportunities of lawful and illicit trade offered by the Island's position and its low import duties." "Among later immigrants was one Philip Moore, a citizen of London engaged in the Norway trade. He is said to have belonged to Wigtonshire, and in Man he founded a family known as the "Moore's of the Hills," the Hills being an estate near Douglas now swallowed up by the modern town.1 He died in 1728 and was succeeded by his son Philip, who was one of the Keys until his death in 1746. He had four sons - Philip, George, James, and John." "George (1709-1787), the second son of Philip II, was the most notable of the family. A merchant from his youth up, he established a flourishing business in Peel, was a member of the Keys, and their Speaker during the trying period which followed the Revestment in 1765. He received a knighthood at the close of his public career. Among the Bridge House papers now in the Manx Museum are Letter Books which once belonged to him and which form the chief sources for this account of one of the leading and most successful Manx merchants of the eighteenth century. The first foolscap volume contains correspondence closely written in various hands during the years 1750 to 1760, and for the most part relating to his business affairs. The second, a slim volume of a hundred pages, is mainly occupied by Moore's letters when he was in London in 1766 on deputation from the Keys. The last entry was made in 1780." "As far as possible he avoided Douglas in his transactions, owing to the risks incurred by dealing with the alien merchants who swarmed there. He resented the presence of these intruders, not only because many of them were shady adventurers of uncertain financial stability, but because they were formidable competitors who did not hesitate to undercut in prices, and thus embarrassed him in his dealings with customers. Writing to Dan Mylrea in 1751, he says: " Pity it is that no method has yet been taken whereby the trade of the Isle might be solely occupied by its natives." Then there's - John Taubman - "Advocate, politician and merchant John Taubman, for one, switched from Guinea goods to direct investment in slaving voyages. He became one of the central political forces in the island during the second half of the 18th century. Taubman and his descendants were at the centre of a tightly-knit clique that dominated the Manx political establishment for generations. Everyone was connected, whether through business or marriage. In the 1790s, while he was Speaker of the House of Keys, Taubman was directly related to 12 of the other members of the house, while four more were connected with him through his business interests. To these merchants, who had made their fortunes in smuggling, it seems that slavery was just another profitable business." - One of Taubman's decendants - http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/fulltext/worthies/p082.htm "the eldest son of John Taubman Goldie-Taubman, of the Nunnery, and Ellen, daughter of Humphrey Senhouse, of Netherhall Cumberland, was educated at Eton, and, on leaving that school in 1856, he travelled extensively. In 1859, he was selected as a member of the self-elected House of Keys, and, in 1867, on being elected as one of the representatives of Douglas in the new popularly elected House, he was chosen as speaker. He continued both to represent Douglas and to hold the office of speaker till his death. It may be mentioned as remarkable that his father, grandfather, and great-grandfather were also speakers of the House of Keys." Manx Freemasonry, too, found a good friend in him, so that when, in 1886, he became the first Right Worshipful Grand Master of the newly-formed Provincial Grand Lodge of Freemasons, his appointment gave general satisfaction." Captain Hugh Crow - "When he retired, he turned down the chance to become an MHK." Strange how these people seem to be connected with MHK's, "merchants" and freemasonry. "But there may be more captains and more voyages." - Or there may not be. "For the Isle of Man, Guinea goods were just the beginning of almost a century of involvement, direct and indirect, in the business of slavery." - What is indirect involvement? a boat? "Liverpool’s pre-eminence in the trade is at least partly due to the supply of merchants, sailors and investors just across the Irish Sea." - Utter nonsense, Yeah I 'm sure Liverpool, Britain and the Empire would have struggled to do these thing without us. "Sometimes we keep unpleasant truths at arm’s length. " - All of this has been known for over a century. I read all about it years ago. "We celebrate abolition but ignore the centuries that came before it, and the toxic legacies of slavery which still haunt our societies." How are they "ignored"? - Here's some things that are ignored more - transportation/banishment for petty crimes - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_transportation , excessive press ganging, The Barbary slave trade - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade 7 hours ago, Lagman said: Oh, I think you know why. As has been previously discussed here, anything positive will left out - (such as from Josem - "If there's going to be any education of the history of the Isle of Man as it relates to slavery, then it should also be one that is based, in part, at the pride that our island produced a Medal of Honor winner for the Union in the American Civil War - William Garrett. A little more information is available online here and elsewhere: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/6136915/william-garrett This Manx-born man was literally awarded America's highest honor for his service in the literal war against slavery.") Then we have Mark Wilks freeing Samuel from slavery. etc. William Kennish (Who's son also fought for the north in the war) risked his life trying to save a black man he was exploring with. http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/iomnhas/v062p181.htm All of these things will be ommitted/forgotten even though they are already known "Isle of Man historic connections with slavery" for propaganda purposes such as in the Manx newspapers article (that you aren't allowed to comment on) - you can't undermine with positive things. We've known about the people named for over a century, it mentions 80 Manx captains but provides no evidence. Lets see how Manx these people were, most of the "Manx smugglers" turned out not to be from here as George Moore whinged about. - http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/iomnhas/v044p640.htm "In the latter half of the seventeenth century, as a consequence of the evergrowing trade between the western British ports and America, together with such fortuitous influences as the Great Plague and the Fire of 1666, there was some dispersal of merchants from the City of London. According to Bullock, at that time a number of commercial adventurers made a settlement in Man, having realised the opportunities of lawful and illicit trade offered by the Island's position and its low import duties." "Among later immigrants was one Philip Moore, a citizen of London engaged in the Norway trade. He is said to have belonged to Wigtonshire, and in Man he founded a family known as the "Moore's of the Hills," the Hills being an estate near Douglas now swallowed up by the modern town.1 He died in 1728 and was succeeded by his son Philip, who was one of the Keys until his death in 1746. He had four sons - Philip, George, James, and John." "George (1709-1787), the second son of Philip II, was the most notable of the family. A merchant from his youth up, he established a flourishing business in Peel, was a member of the Keys, and their Speaker during the trying period which followed the Revestment in 1765. He received a knighthood at the close of his public career. Among the Bridge House papers now in the Manx Museum are Letter Books which once belonged to him and which form the chief sources for this account of one of the leading and most successful Manx merchants of the eighteenth century. The first foolscap volume contains correspondence closely written in various hands during the years 1750 to 1760, and for the most part relating to his business affairs. The second, a slim volume of a hundred pages, is mainly occupied by Moore's letters when he was in London in 1766 on deputation from the Keys. The last entry was made in 1780." "As far as possible he avoided Douglas in his transactions, owing to the risks incurred by dealing with the alien merchants who swarmed there. He resented the presence of these intruders, not only because many of them were shady adventurers of uncertain financial stability, but because they were formidable competitors who did not hesitate to undercut in prices, and thus embarrassed him in his dealings with customers. Writing to Dan Mylrea in 1751, he says: " Pity it is that no method has yet been taken whereby the trade of the Isle might be solely occupied by its natives." Then there's - John Taubman - "Advocate, politician and merchant John Taubman, for one, switched from Guinea goods to direct investment in slaving voyages. He became one of the central political forces in the island during the second half of the 18th century. Taubman and his descendants were at the centre of a tightly-knit clique that dominated the Manx political establishment for generations. Everyone was connected, whether through business or marriage. In the 1790s, while he was Speaker of the House of Keys, Taubman was directly related to 12 of the other members of the house, while four more were connected with him through his business interests. To these merchants, who had made their fortunes in smuggling, it seems that slavery was just another profitable business." - One of Taubman's decendants - http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/fulltext/worthies/p082.htm "the eldest son of John Taubman Goldie-Taubman, of the Nunnery, and Ellen, daughter of Humphrey Senhouse, of Netherhall Cumberland, was educated at Eton, and, on leaving that school in 1856, he travelled extensively. In 1859, he was selected as a member of the self-elected House of Keys, and, in 1867, on being elected as one of the representatives of Douglas in the new popularly elected House, he was chosen as speaker. He continued both to represent Douglas and to hold the office of speaker till his death. It may be mentioned as remarkable that his father, grandfather, and great-grandfather were also speakers of the House of Keys." Manx Freemasonry, too, found a good friend in him, so that when, in 1886, he became the first Right Worshipful Grand Master of the newly-formed Provincial Grand Lodge of Freemasons, his appointment gave general satisfaction." Captain Hugh Crow - "When he retired, he turned down the chance to become an MHK." Strange how these people seem to be connected with MHK's, "merchants" and freemasonry. "But there may be more captains and more voyages." - Or there may not be. "For the Isle of Man, Guinea goods were just the beginning of almost a century of involvement, direct and indirect, in the business of slavery." - What is indirect involvement? a boat? "Liverpool’s pre-eminence in the trade is at least partly due to the supply of merchants, sailors and investors just across the Irish Sea." - Utter nonsense, Yeah I 'm sure Liverpool, Britain and the Empire would have struggled to do these thing without us. "Sometimes we keep unpleasant truths at arm’s length. " - All of this has been known for over a century. I read all about it years ago. "We celebrate abolition but ignore the centuries that came before it, and the toxic legacies of slavery which still haunt our societies." How are they "ignored"? - Here's some things that are ignored more - transportation/banishment for petty crimes - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_transportation , excessive press ganging, The Barbary slave trade - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade Great content! To add to this, a rare book written by an Icelandic minister in 1627 Olafur Egilsson tells of being enslaved by Islamic pirates,he managed to return home as they often demanded a ransom.Blonde women were prized in Harems and were captured never to return.So the" religion of peace" predates African/ Usa use of slaves.The Armenian genocide was another affront to humanity,thought to give the Nazis the idea later, by many, Isnt it sad that a people who believed in an 1400 year old illiterate goatherd,who traveled on a winged horse ,and spoke to 700 year old Archangel,could cause so much suffering.And it still goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Trumps Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 It's a fascinating story the slavers raid on Iceland, made the more poignant by the fact that many of the Celtic women who helped make the nation were themselves dragged there as slaves Anyone know if the Musselmen slavers used rowed galleys to get there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Slavery existed millenia before the rise of the mohammedans. It predates all of the established cults. Enslavement flourished alongside agricultural development when labour was required to sustain growth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 24 minutes ago, Donald Trumps said: Anyone know if the Musselmen slavers used rowed galleys to get there? Barbary corsairs were largely captured vessels, originally the pirates commandeered these ships from smaller, rowed and sailed boats in overwhelming numbers. Much like Somali pirates do now except they're powered by motor. With the development of iron cannon, capturing these ships became a more dangerous game for the pirates but by that time they had small fleets of captured vessels of their own. All sailed vessels of the time had to have the facility to be rowed, usually by an established crew but in all probability some slaves were used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Trumps Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 They used a captured Danish merchant ship to get to Iceland, it seems - makes sense, the sight of rowed galleys would no doubt have been a danger warning to Icelanders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Newbie Posted July 13, 2020 Author Share Posted July 13, 2020 They’ll be demanding Barbary Coast is renamed at this rate. I give it until the weekend before a movement starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Donald Trumps said: It's a fascinating story the slavers raid on Iceland, made the more poignant by the fact that many of the Celtic women who helped make the nation were themselves dragged there as slaves One of places they raided was Vestmannaeyjar - the Westmann Islands and is named after the Gaelic slaves the vikings took to Iceland. (The Irish being West Men and the Norse East Men). A group murdered their captor and escape to Vestmannaeyjar where they were massacred. I read the book one of the captured - the minister of Vestmannaeyjar - wrote. He was set free and had to make his own way from Turkey to Denmark to plead for the ransom to release the hostages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Trumps Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Yes, I've read of him Wasn't his wife captured too? I think they both made their way back home separately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 28 minutes ago, Donald Trumps said: They used a captured Danish merchant ship to get to Iceland, it seems - makes sense, the sight of rowed galleys would no doubt have been a danger warning to Icelanders You could also use captured vessels for false flag operations - as indeed they did on some of the Icelandic raids. Galleys were mainly useful only on shorter distance journeys in the Mediterranean and in warfare where their speed and manoeuvrability were best suited. The leader of that raid, like many Barbary corsairs, was actually European (Dutch) and was also responsible for the famous raid on Baltimore in Ireland. He also captured and held Lundy Island for five years. Most of those taken as slaves by corsairs were actually sailors and some gained their freedom by joining the corsairs and usually converting to Islam. Others actually joined them directly for financial advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 9 minutes ago, Donald Trumps said: Yes, I've read of him Wasn't his wife captured too? I think they both made their way back home separately She made it back nine years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Trumps Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Interesting that there was an English fishing vessel that far north at the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 Don'tcha just love Wikipedia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald Trumps Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 The apps that make Wikipedia entries into YouTube videos are smart, if somewhat monotone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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