Brexit Penny Dropping?

[manxman1980]

1 minute ago, The Voice of Reason said:

This one:-

The referendum question was: Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union? 
 

Quite clear I would have thought. And the result was equally clear.

Muddying the waters yet again...

52% to 48% whilst a majority vote is not a clear result and in many other referendums would not have met the criteria to make such a big decision.  The closeness of that result is what led to the impasse in Parliament, all the legal challenges and ultimately to the years of Political chaos that the UK has seen since and has left the country, rather ironically, with the last two PM's having never taken their party to a General Election having been voted for by either the members of the Conservative Party or Conservative MP's.  We can all see that the current PM is desperately trying to delay a General Election to extend his stay in the top job or in the vague hope of the Tories finding a miracle.  

The problem with the actual question is that is massively oversimplifies the issue and during the campaigns leading up to that vote there was no clarity about what leaving actually would look like.  As @RecklessAbandon has highlighted many on the leave side were not in agreement about what leaving actually looked like.  This again led to much of the arguments immediately after the referendum and Parliament spending time arguing over what the result actually meant. 

The whole referendum was a debacle but I suppose it helps some people sleep to think that the UK is now free from unelected bureaucrats and "red tape"... erm... hang on...

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Just now, manxman1980 said:

Muddying the waters yet again...

52% to 48% whilst a majority vote is not a clear result

 

I beg to differ.

[manxman1980]

6 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

I beg to differ.

And what about the rest of the points or are you just going to ignore the fact that the question was oversimplified and that there was a broad variety of opinions on what leaving would actually look like? 

[The Voice of Reason]

13 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

And what about the rest of the points or are you just going to ignore the fact that the question was oversimplified and that there was a broad variety of opinions on what leaving would actually look like? 

OK , Perhaps I could ask you to draft  the referendum question that you would have liked to have been asked which encompasses all the range of opinions and options that you and Reckless Abandon have referred to. For example in respect of the WTO, Switzerland model, Single Market, Freedom of Movement etc etc , and all the permutations thereof. Oh and include one for me please. about ending the supremacy of EU law or not.

I look forward to reading it!

[woolley]

3 hours ago, P.K. said:

@The Voice of Reason

"In a recent survey by More in Common, a civil society organisation, voters were asked to describe the UK in a word. The top choices were “broken”, “mess”, “struggling”, “divided”, “expensive”, “poor” and “chaotic”."

Well, your totally stupid and completely unnecessary brexit certainly contributed to all of the above...

Ask everyone in Europe the same about their country. Probably say the same.

[woolley]

46 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

The problem with the actual question is that is massively oversimplifies the issue and during the campaigns leading up to that vote there was no clarity about what leaving actually would look like. 

 

And to think that the UK was taken into the EEC/EU with no referendum at all. Even worse!

[The Voice of Reason]

49 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

Muddying the waters yet again...

52% to 48% whilst a majority vote is not a clear result and in many other referendums would not have met the criteria to make such a big decision.  l

 

OK what size majority vote would you suggest? 
75% is oft quoted but that was not achieved  in the 1975 referendum. A simple majority was all that was required  for continued membership of the EEC

[manxman1980]

3 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

OK , Perhaps I could ask you to draft  the referendum question that you would have liked to have been asked which encompasses all the range of opinions and options that you and Reckless Abandon have referred to. For example in respect of the WTO, Switzerland model, Single Market, Freedom of Movement etc etc , and all the permutations thereof. Oh and include one for me please. about ending the supremacy of EU law or not.

I look forward to reading it!

Doesn't that just highlight the point we were making?  The ideal question would have been "Should the UK remain in the EU or leave based on << Insert one realistic and deliverable option>>

2 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

OK what size majority vote would you suggest? 
75% is oft quoted but that was not achieved  in the 1975 referendum. A simple majority was all that was required  for continued membership of the EEC

I would have gone for 60% majority.  That gets you a clear difference between both options.

2 hours ago, woolley said:

And to think that the UK was taken into the EEC/EU with no referendum at all. Even worse!

Presumably the elected Governments of the time made these big decisions on behalf of the electorate?

[The Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, manxman1980 said:

Doesn't that just highlight the point we were making?  The ideal question would have been "Should the UK remain in the EU or leave based on << Insert one realistic and deliverable option>>

OK if you’re only giving one option.

” Should the UK remain or leave the EU, based on the UK having its own domestic laws determined by a democratically elected UK Parliament, taking precedence over an unelected body in Strasbourg or Brussels?”

But there’s plenty of other things to consider.

Yes as the holder of a Manx  ( UK) passport holder it was great to go through and visit  the EU countries almost seamlessly. But not at the expense of surrendering sovereignty ( “ ever closer union”)

I love visiting Europe. It’s got a lot to offer. And Europeans seem to love visiting. the UK. I think we have a good relationship. We don’t need to morph into one big superstate. As I have said before “ Vive la difference” Let’s celebrate that.

[woolley]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

OK if you’re only giving one option.

” Should the UK remain or leave the EU, based on the UK having its own domestic laws determined by a democratically elected UK Parliament, taking precedence over an unelected body in Strasbourg or Brussels?”

But there’s plenty of other things to consider.

Yes as the holder of a Manx  ( UK) passport holder it was great to go through and visit  the EU countries almost seamlessly. But not at the expense of surrendering sovereignty ( “ ever closer union”)

I love visiting Europe. It’s got a lot to offer. And Europeans seem to love visiting. the UK. I think we have a good relationship. We don’t need to morph into one big superstate. As I have said before “ Vive la difference” Let’s celebrate that.

That's all there is to it.

[manxman1980]

8 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

OK if you’re only giving one option.

” Should the UK remain or leave the EU, based on the UK having its own domestic laws determined by a democratically elected UK Parliament, taking precedence over an unelected body in Strasbourg or Brussels?”

But there’s plenty of other things to consider.

Yes as the holder of a Manx  ( UK) passport holder it was great to go through and visit  the EU countries almost seamlessly. But not at the expense of surrendering sovereignty ( “ ever closer union”)

I love visiting Europe. It’s got a lot to offer. And Europeans seem to love visiting. the UK. I think we have a good relationship. We don’t need to morph into one big superstate. As I have said before “ Vive la difference” Let’s celebrate that.

 

6 hours ago, woolley said:

That's all there is to it.

I will remind you both that the last two Prime Ministers in the UK have never led their party in a General Election. 

Liz Truss keeps babbling about the "blob".  Apparently a shadowy group who are not democratically elected who really control the UK Parliament (post Brexit!).

The current PM is clinging to power and delaying a general election despite the fact that his Government and party is a complete shambles and in the last two weeks two Conservative MPs have defected to Labour.

The current Home Secretary isn't an MP at all and hasn't been for many years.  Instead they were given a peerage to enable them to take up the post.

There was also Zach Goldsmith who was given a peerage so he could remain in his post as Minister of State despite not being an elected MP.

Rather makes a mockery of the notion that the UK is having its laws determined by a democratically elected Government doesn't it?

[La Colombe]

There will hopefully be some grownups back in charge of the country before the year is out who will start to repair the Brexit damage done by this current shower. 

[The Voice of Reason]

39 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

 

I will remind you both that the last two Prime Ministers in the UK have never led their party in a General Election. 

Liz Truss keeps babbling about the "blob".  Apparently a shadowy group who are not democratically elected who really control the UK Parliament (post Brexit!).

The current PM is clinging to power and delaying a general election despite the fact that his Government and party is a complete shambles and in the last two weeks two Conservative MPs have defected to Labour.

The current Home Secretary isn't an MP at all and hasn't been for many years.  Instead they were given a peerage to enable them to take up the post.

There was also Zach Goldsmith who was given a peerage so he could remain in his post as Minister of State despite not being an elected MP.

Rather makes a mockery of the notion that the UK is having its laws determined by a democratically elected Government doesn't it?

Not really no.

The UK makes it’s laws under the rules it has set itself, not by a third party.

The current parlous state of the Tory party has no bearing on the issue of self determination. Within and without the EU many governing parties are in a similar position 

The fact that the last two Prime Ministers have never led their  party in a General Election is neither here nor there.There is no obligation for them to have done so. No doubt this situation has happened, and could happen, in other countries.

Yes two democratically Tory MP’s have defected to Labour recently as is their prerogative. I’m not sure where you are going with this, particularly in relation to Brexit.

Giving individuals peerages to enable them to accede to, or remain in a post, however undesirable it may be thought is a procedure formulated by the UK itself not forced upon it by a collection of other countries.

So no mockery made.

[RecklessAbandon]

15 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

This one:-

The referendum question was: Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union? 
 

Quite clear I would have thought. And the result was equally clear.

But what flavour of Leave?

And there is the rub, if you had a "sub" referendum about what Leave would look like, the complete idiocy of Leave would have been there for all to see.

So when people (such as yourself and Leave campaigners) throw out sound bites and cliches like "will of the people" and "getting Brexit done", I know its all a con.

Edited May 9 by RecklessAbandon

[manxman1980]

2 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

The UK makes it’s laws under the rules it has set itself, not by a third party.

Except where it enters into Trade Agreements and has to accept outside influence on UK rules in order to be able to have a trade agreement.  I know you will argue that this is a decision made by the democratically elected UK Government but the country is now in a weaker negotiating position now and therefore will have to make more concessions. 

Essentially Brexit has positioned the UK to take a shafting from the countries that it wants to trade with.

2 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

The current parlous state of the Tory party has no bearing on the issue of self determination. Within and without the EU many governing parties are in a similar position 

The state of the Tory party is, however, inextricably linked with Brexit.  It was the subject of EU membership that was the cause of much strife and internal division over many years.  It was this that led to Farage and others forming UKIP and applying pressure to the Conservative party.  That in turn led to Cameron giving in to the Euro sceptics in the Tory party and holding the referendum.  Up until that point the a small minority of typically Conservative voters and right wing nuts were voting UKIP which threatened the Tory party with losing power.  There was no way that a party like UKIP would ever win a majority in Parliament.

Since then the Tory party has fragmented further over what Brexit should look like, how hard or soft it should be, and now UKIP has rebranded to Reform and is still forcing some Tory MP's into more extremes.

2 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

The fact that the last two Prime Ministers have never led their  party in a General Election is neither here nor there.There is no obligation for them to have done so. No doubt this situation has happened, and could happen, in other countries.

You are correct that there is no requirement for them to do so but those two PM's have also brought about significant alterations to their parties pledges but continued to claim that they had a democratic mandate for them.  That is absolute nonsense as the public have not had the opportunity to vote on these new policies.  

I am afraid that these PM's cannot have it both ways. 

2 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Yes two democratically Tory MP’s have defected to Labour recently as is their prerogative. I’m not sure where you are going with this, particularly in relation to Brexit.

Merely to point out that they stood for election on a Conservative Manifesto but have now abandoned that to sign up for a Labour position that opposes much of what was in the Conservative Manifesto.  Ironically the latest defection highlights this as even Labour MP's have questioned how she can do a 180 on her position in relation to immigration to then join the party she has been criticising endlessly.  

True democracy would have resulted in both standing down as MP's and byelections taking place. 

2 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Giving individuals peerages to enable them to accede to, or remain in a post, however undesirable it may be thought is a procedure formulated by the UK itself not forced upon it by a collection of other countries.

Yes, again, whilst it may be legally allowable under UK law it does make a mockery out of the argument about not wanting to be ruled by "unelected elites" or "unelected bureaucrats".  One of those unelected Lords, by the way, not only had a huge role in this current mess but also has unanswered questions about their links to China...

How do you feel about the UK falling under Chinese influence?

2 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said:

So no mockery made.

The state of democracy in the UK is an absolute joke.