Brexit Penny Dropping?

[woolley]

48 minutes ago, RecklessAbandon said:

So how does your "sovereignty is not a fallacy" statement stand with the Government's 2017 own white paper which essentially said "we've always been sovereign, it just doesn't look that way to some people"?

The statement is demonstrably wrong.

[RecklessAbandon]

8 minutes ago, woolley said:

The statement is demonstrably wrong.

Care to elaborate?

Just to re-iterate, the UK Government in 2017, a Tory Government, released a white paper that clarified that the UK Government always had and always will have sovereignty and the only thing that Leavers can point at is "getting control back".

These two things do not reconcile with each other.  So who is right?  The UK (Tory) Government with access to all the facts and information regarding sovereignty or Woolley and the Voice of Reason?

[woolley]

18 minutes ago, RecklessAbandon said:

Care to elaborate?

Just to re-iterate, the UK Government in 2017, a Tory Government, released a white paper that clarified that the UK Government always had and always will have sovereignty and the only thing that Leavers can point at is "getting control back".

These two things do not reconcile with each other.  So who is right?  The UK (Tory) Government with access to all the facts and information regarding sovereignty or Woolley and the Voice of Reason?

Woolley, without shadow of a doubt.

[P.K.]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/588948/The_United_Kingdoms_exit_from_and_partnership_with_the_EU_Web.pdf

[RecklessAbandon]

28 minutes ago, woolley said:

Woolley, without shadow of a doubt.

Wilful ignorance is still ignorance.

[woolley]

9 minutes ago, RecklessAbandon said:

Wilful ignorance is still ignorance.

You chaps are all black and white with minimal attention span. You see broad brushstrokes with no shades of grey or nuance. The true answer is that legally the UK had sovereignty whilst in the EU, or else it couldn't have left. However, the treaties it had signed up to nullified the exercise of sovereignty on a day to day basis for the duration, and the reach of the EU diktat had increased, and would further increase as time went by. 

@P.K. was always fond of telling me that anything that Westminster didn't like could simply be vetoed, but this isn't the case. EU law is supreme over domestic law throughout the bloc, and had to be nodded through the UK Parliament. EU court decisions trump national courts, etc, so sovereignty could not be exercised fully within the EU. All of this is enshrined in the UK European Communities Act 1972, and is why, when Cameron went cap in hand to the EU for minor concessions on their "Four Freedoms" to shore up his Remain campaign, they showed him the finger and there wasn't a thing he could do about it. That's national sovereignty EU style. Maybe if they'd given him a fig leaf to exercise power in the nation he led, he'd have got a Remain vote over the line, but they didn't. Thank you, EU.

[manxman1980]

@RecklessAbandon you are never going to change the minds of @woolley or @The Voice of Reason.  As much as they will accuse you of playing back the same arguments for remain they do exactly the same for leave.  

It really isn't worth it.  I said a few pages ago that they will go to the sovereignty argument and that is just where it has ended up.

If you really feel that leaving the EU was a stupid idea then the best thing to do is engage with others who have a similar mindset and, if you are in a position to do so, form or join a Rejoin movement and focus the attention on young voters in the UK.  Forget about the older people who voted leave as they will likely not be around by the time there is a possibility of the UK re-joining the EU.

[woolley]

2 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

@RecklessAbandon you are never going to change the minds of @woolley or @The Voice of Reason.  As much as they will accuse you of playing back the same arguments for remain they do exactly the same for leave.  

It really isn't worth it.  I said a few pages ago that they will go to the sovereignty argument and that is just where it has ended up.

If you really feel that leaving the EU was a stupid idea then the best thing to do is engage with others who have a similar mindset and, if you are in a position to do so, form or join a Rejoin movement and focus the attention on young voters in the UK.  Forget about the older people who voted leave as they will likely not be around by the time there is a possibility of the UK re-joining the EU.

Your first 2 paragraphs are factual. No argument at all. It's a circular argument depending on how much the individual values national self-determination. The intractability of this issue is the reason I don't engage much now. It's 8 years ago, for goodness sake.

Rejoin is very fringe. They play on "how bad things are in the UK", but people all over the continent feel the same way. They look upon 10-25 years ago as a golden age of plenty, but that's the 2020s for you. Times are harder everywhere. Looking at events and speaking to people around Europe, I think the future of the EU is finite anyway. It probably has a lot more yesterdays than it has tomorrows.

[RecklessAbandon]

36 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

@RecklessAbandon you are never going to change the minds of @woolley or @The Voice of Reason.  As much as they will accuse you of playing back the same arguments for remain they do exactly the same for leave.  

It really isn't worth it.  I said a few pages ago that they will go to the sovereignty argument and that is just where it has ended up.

If you really feel that leaving the EU was a stupid idea then the best thing to do is engage with others who have a similar mindset and, if you are in a position to do so, form or join a Rejoin movement and focus the attention on young voters in the UK.  Forget about the older people who voted leave as they will likely not be around by the time there is a possibility of the UK re-joining the EU.

My problem is that the "sovereignty fallacy" is just that, it is a lie that conmen used to con people.  And liars need to be called out otherwise the lie only spreads.

 

[manxman1980]

21 minutes ago, woolley said:

Your first 2 paragraphs are factual. No argument at all. It's a circular argument depending on how much the individual values national self-determination. The intractability of this issue is the reason I don't engage much now. It's 8 years ago, for goodness sake.

Rejoin is very fringe. They play on "how bad things are in the UK", but people all over the continent feel the same way. They look upon 10-25 years ago as a golden age of plenty, but that's the 2020s for you. Times are harder everywhere. Looking at events and speaking to people around Europe, I think the future of the EU is finite anyway. It probably has a lot more yesterdays than it has tomorrows.

UKIP was very fringe at one point as well and look what they achieved through applying pressure on the Government (especially of the blue variety) over the years.

As for your assessment on the future of the EU, that is your opinion, and is tainted by your views on the EU.  I know many people from EU countries including Poland, Hungary, France, Portugal and Spain who all remain very much in favour of the EU and their countries remaining part of the EU.  Of course, that is not a scientific poll but it counter balances you and your EU friends who say they think the EU will collapse. 

Of course times are more difficult now.  There is so much global uncertainty but nations coming together to work on solutions is much better than countries doing all sort of random shit including starting wars and grabbing resources. 

[manxman1980]

Just now, RecklessAbandon said:

My problem is that the "sovereignty fallacy" is just that, it is a lie that conmen used to con people.  And liars need to be called out otherwise the lie only spreads.

 

Point it out to those that follow and not those that propagate it. 

[RecklessAbandon]

44 minutes ago, woolley said:

However, the treaties it had signed up to nullified the exercise of sovereignty on a day to day basis for the duration, and the reach of the EU diktat had increased, and would further increase as time went by. 

That is simply not true.  It is demonstrably and factually not true.

The Government even said so (granted after the referendum) that it wasn't true.

David Cameron blocks EU treaty with veto, casting Britain adrift in Europe | European Union | The Guardian

A story from 2011 of the UK exercising its veto right.

[RecklessAbandon]

4 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

...you and your EU friends who say they think the EU will collapse. 

That is another Leaver "Mystic Meg" prediction.

[woolley]

41 minutes ago, RecklessAbandon said:

My problem is that the "sovereignty fallacy" is just that, it is a lie that conmen used to con people.  And liars need to be called out otherwise the lie only spreads.

 

 

40 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

Point it out to those that follow and not those that propagate it. 

 

37 minutes ago, RecklessAbandon said:

That is simply not true.  It is demonstrably and factually not true.

The Government even said so (granted after the referendum) that it wasn't true.

David Cameron blocks EU treaty with veto, casting Britain adrift in Europe | European Union | The Guardian

A story from 2011 of the UK exercising its veto right.

You are either ignorant of the subject if you think that a member state can veto anything it doesn't like, or you are being disingenuous and thinking your readers know no better.

Far from being a fallacy, the sovereignty deficit in the EU is very real. Yes, there are reserved areas of policy subject to the national veto and still requiring unanimity - for now. However, 80% of EU legislation nowadays is enacted by Qualified Majority Voting which, by definition, is incompatible with national sovereignty.

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/qualified-majority/

[Non-Believer]

2 hours ago, woolley said:

Looking at events and speaking to people around Europe, I think the future of the EU is finite anyway. It probably has a lot more yesterdays than it has tomorrows.

I was in Europe a couple of weeks ago visiting friends and family (2 countries). They are quite happy to be in the EU and feel quite happy in its future.

Moreover, they regard the UK as a laughing stock following Brexit, in no uncertain terms. "Insular, backward and xenophobic" were just three of the adjectives used, this by people with close UK and family connections.

Edited May 17 by Non-Believer
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