Brexit Penny Dropping?

[RecklessAbandon]

How the EU works: the EU’s powers - Full Fact

"References to the EU’s powers (also described as its ‘competences’) generally mean the powers of the EU to make laws. The authority for lawmaking comes ultimately from the EU’s members.

EU member countries have made agreements, or treaties, that guarantee freedom of trade and cross-border business activities.

These treaties promise common action in fields like agriculture, the environment and foreign and security policy. Every citizen of a member country is also a citizen of the EU and has rights of movement and residence, as well as the right to work, in every EU country.

In order to make sure these rights can be enforced, the EU has its own system of rules. Some of the EU rules are set out in the treaties but most are made by the EU itself.

There is an EU court to interpret the rules. The Court of Justice of the European Union is based in Luxembourg.

The power to make laws is limited by the treaties

The EU has the power to make a law only if the treaties give it that power. This is referred to as ‘conferral’.

And the only areas that the EU should regulate are those that member countries cannot sufficiently regulate themselves. Wherever possible, decisions should be taken at national level. This is the idea of ‘subsidiarity’.

Critics say that the idea of subsidiarity hasn’t led to less European regulation, because in practice the Commission interprets the criteria as applying to all proposals for Europe-wide rules.

Some types of law are easier to pass than others. The EU has the power to lay down the rules on value added tax, for example, but making or changing those rules requires every country to agree.

So every member has a veto when it comes to VAT and other taxes.

The EU and human rights

The EU has adopted a Charter of Fundamental Rights to limit its own powers. EU laws must comply with Charter rights, such as free speech, privacy and sex equality.  

Member countries are also bound by the Charter when they apply EU law in their national systems.

The Charter has been controversial in the UK because critics believe the EU court can use it to extend the reach of EU law and reduce national sovereignty. However, EU law states that the Charter does not create new rights and does not increase the EU’s powers.

In practice, the Charter seems to be giving the courts a bigger role. Judges in England have used the Charter in several recent cases to override UK laws.

All this is separate from the European Convention on Human Rights and European Court of Human Rights, which aren’t part of the EU at all.

EU rules cover many different areas

EU law-making powers are limited to what the treaties allow. But the treaties cover a wide range of issues.

EU laws on free movement cover things like product standards and composition, product labelling, rights of movement and residence of EU citizens, company law and banking regulation.

The EU’s powers to regulate the single market are defined widely. They cover rules from consumer protection to animal welfare.

Rules on agriculture provide for payments to farmers and also cover fisheries, limiting the number of fish that can be caught and sold.

Other EU rules implement environmental policy. They lay down minimum standards for the purity of drinking water and clean air. They also address global warming.

EU laws generally have to go through three different institutions

Making a law at EU level usually starts with the Commission making a proposal to the Council. The Council then decides on the content of the law (voting by qualified majority) in conjunction with the European Parliament. For most laws, both have to agree for them to be passed.

The Council is made up of representatives of national governments and the Parliament is directly elected.

EU laws sometimes delegate powers to the Commission—which is an administrative body, headed by commissioners approved both by national governments and the European Parliament.

When the Commission makes rules under these delegated powers, it may be supervised by a committee of national representatives.

The EU has other powers beyond setting the rules, including international dealings

Not all powers of the EU are lawmaking powers.

The Commission has law enforcement powers. It can take a member country to the EU court for breaching EU law. If a member country fails to comply with a judgment of the court, it may impose a financial penalty.

The Commission also enforces EU rules that restrict member countries from giving subsidies to businesses which could distort competition (‘state aid’ rules).

The EU negotiates free trade agreements with non-member countries. It also has power to impose sanctions on regimes breaking international law or oppressing their populations. It has imposed sanctions on countries such as Iran, Libya and Syria.

By Derrick Wyatt QC, Emeritus Professor of Law, University of Oxford"

[The Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, RecklessAbandon said:

My problem is that the "sovereignty fallacy" is just that, it is a lie that conmen used to con people.  And liars need to be called out otherwise the lie only spreads.

 

How can you deny that member states of the EU  have lost their sovereignty  when it is a fact, (not a lie or a con ) that  EU law takes precedence over their own domestic law?

It’s the  simplest of questions asked many times on this thread but never properly answered.

Would you care to have a stab at explaining?

 

[P.K.]

3 hours ago, woolley said:

You chaps are all black and white with minimal attention span. You see broad brushstrokes with no shades of grey or nuance. The true answer is that legally the UK had sovereignty whilst in the EU, or else it couldn't have left. However, the treaties it had signed up to nullified the exercise of sovereignty on a day to day basis for the duration, and the reach of the EU diktat had increased, and would further increase as time went by. 

@P.K. was always fond of telling me that anything that Westminster didn't like could simply be vetoed, but this isn't the case. EU law is supreme over domestic law throughout the bloc, and had to be nodded through the UK Parliament. EU court decisions trump national courts, etc, so sovereignty could not be exercised fully within the EU. All of this is enshrined in the UK European Communities Act 1972, and is why, when Cameron went cap in hand to the EU for minor concessions on their "Four Freedoms" to shore up his Remain campaign, they showed him the finger and there wasn't a thing he could do about it. That's national sovereignty EU style. Maybe if they'd given him a fig leaf to exercise power in the nation he led, he'd have got a Remain vote over the line, but they didn't. Thank you, EU.

@woolley

The above is mostly vapourware.

Any of the Sovereign States in the EU could invoke Article 50 at any time. Mindful of this the EU would never try to push through anything that might cause the member states to want to leave. Unlike our current government they're just not that stupid. Which is why in over 40 years of membership "sovereignty" was never an issue. Except possibly in the UK right wing press of the Daily Mail, the Express, the Sun and the Telegraph who were in thrall to the anti-EU (tax avoidance) agenda of the owner. So for four decades they dissed the EU with anything they could find including the infamous "bendy bananas" bs and so forth. In fact there was so much "fake news" flying about that the EU was given to collating it all and producing fact sheets to refute it!

Anyway sovereignty only became an issue when a running scared idiot Cameron put an EU referendum in the tory manifesto which kicked off a UK right wing press feeding frenzy. With economic benefits very thin (ie refutable) on the ground Farage was forced to do the media rounds saying "It was always about sovereignty" when it never actually had been!

So the bottom line is in the very unlikely event that the EU had pushed the envelope just a bit too far then that would have been the time to invoke Article 50.

So obviously to leave without anything to fear in the future was just bloody stupid...

[woolley]

1 hour ago, P.K. said:

@woolley

Anyway sovereignty only became an issue when a running scared idiot Cameron put an EU referendum in the tory manifesto which kicked off a UK right wing press feeding frenzy. With economic benefits very thin (ie refutable) on the ground Farage was forced to do the media rounds saying "It was always about sovereignty" when it never actually had been!

It was always an issue, but Cameron only did that because he expected another Coalition Government and was relying on numpty Clegg to dash hopes of a referendum as part of the deal. He was being disingenuous. Unfortunately for him he won a bit too well.

[woolley]

2 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

I was in Europe a couple of weeks ago visiting friends and family (2 countries). They are quite happy to be in the EU and feel quite happy in its future.

Moreover, they regard the UK as a laughing stock following Brexit, in no uncertain terms. "Insular, backward and xenophobic" were just three of the adjectives used, this by people with close UK and family connections.

Look, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I fear that some are in for a rude awakening.

[woolley]

2 hours ago, RecklessAbandon said:

How the EU works: the EU’s powers - Full Fact

Lots of stuff.

 

By Derrick Wyatt QC, Emeritus Professor of Law, University of Oxford"

Most unexpected, but thank you for using Full Fact to spell out the veracity of everything I've posted. I take it you did read and understand this?

[P.K.]

30 minutes ago, woolley said:

It was always an issue, but Cameron only did that because he expected another Coalition Government and was relying on numpty Clegg to dash hopes of a referendum as part of the deal. He was being disingenuous. Unfortunately for him he won a bit too well.

BS.

You can't escape the main point of my post to wit that the UK could have carried on in the EU with no fear for the future.

Tell you what. Post up all those brexit benefits to be found on the "sunlit uplands"...!

Always worth a laugh that one...

[woolley]

1 minute ago, P.K. said:

BS.

You can't escape the main point of my post to wit that the UK could have carried on in the EU with no fear for the future.

Tell you what. Post up all those brexit benefits to be found on the "sunlit uplands"...!

Always worth a laugh that one...

I ignored it because I've answered it multiple times in the past, and you know that I have.

[Non-Believer]

1 hour ago, woolley said:

Look, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I fear that some are in for a rude awakening.

Yes....Britain is experiencing it now.

The one question that my EU friends/rels repeatedly ask is, "Why did Britain do it? Why subject the country and economy to all the division and economic upheaval and grief, expense and extra administration?"

So I trotted out the standard reply of sovereignty, self-determination, independence, blue passports etc. All at any cost.

Their unvarying response is, "But we've still got ours while we're in the EU without all the misery". Then they start shaking their heads and laughing.

[The Voice of Reason]

42 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

Yes....Britain is experiencing it now.

The one question that my EU friends/rels repeatedly ask is, "Why did Britain do it? Why subject the country and economy to all the division and economic upheaval and grief, expense and extra administration?"

So I trotted out the standard reply of sovereignty, self-determination, independence, blue passports etc. All at any cost.

Their unvarying response is, "But we've still got ours while we're in the EU without all the misery". Then they start shaking their heads and laughing.

But they haven’t have they?

[The Voice of Reason]

45 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

Then they start shaking their heads and laughing.

Have they got some sort of medical condition?

[code99]

28 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

But they haven’t have they?

but they have, e.g.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_passport

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_passport

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_passport

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_passport

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_passport

etc, etc, etc

[Non-Believer]

29 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Have they got some sort of medical condition?

Clearly not as serious as the psychological condition of one who sits in the Traf calling for the return of smoking in enclosed public areas and fantasising about David Ashford's political abilities (if not other fantasies about Ashford).

Britons were sold a pack of lies, pure and simple, in order to benefit a very small percentage of British society. They will be paying the costs for many years to come.

[woolley]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

But they haven’t have they?

Of course they haven't, but these people don't see it, are willfully blind to it, or simply don't care. This is so often like a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

[woolley]

1 hour ago, code99 said:

but they have, e.g.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_passport

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_passport

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_passport

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_passport

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_passport

etc, etc, etc

Really? You are serious?