Open University Fees For Iom Residents Set To Soar

[manxman34]

21 hours ago, James Blonde said:

Kind of depends if your degree would be useful to us as an island. 

If you're studying to be a medical doctor or dentist then it should all be paid for you. 

 

If you're studying media studies, psychology or history then jog on. 

It's harsh but the economy is on it's arse so we shouldn't be funding something just because someone wants a degree.

Of course the OU don't do degrees in medicine or dentistry, but it's interesting that you take such a utilitarian view of education. It's the sort of thinking designed to help the lower order know their place. When universal free education was introduced, the idea was to teach the common folk just enough to make them useful to the bosses, but not fill their heads with nasty, subversive ideas about equality and such. It's a shame to see it surfacing still, outside the niche area of the most swivel-eyed tory loons.

[Boris Johnson]

The daft thing is that I can not imagine we are talking 1,000's of people either so it would not be a huge sum of money in a government budget type of way

One of my daughters friends is doing a Masters on the island, (don't think its OU) and I was very surprised when she told me her friends parents were having to pay for all of the, not inconsiderable fees (Approx. £10k IIRC for the 2 years plus books etc) as there was literally zero help from government. This is a young lady that has been away to Uni and returned to work on the island which is what the gov want? 

IMHO there should at least be loans available for things like this and also living expenses for off island Uni courses, which despite the Gov paying about £7.5k of the yearly fees, still costs parents a fortune which must stop a lot of students doing degrees?

A £2.5k Loan each year for students does not really cover much and you have to be basically broke before you get any grants.

[Boris Johnson]

4 minutes ago, manxman34 said:

Of course the OU don't do degrees in medicine or dentistry, 

Maybe they should, we may have better doctors on the island if they did.............................................

[Roger Mexico]

2 minutes ago, Boris Johnson said:

Maybe they should, we may have better doctors on the island if they did.............................................

But the problem is that that they can only operate on you if you're in Milton Keynes.

[Boris Johnson]

Joking apart, remote ops with robots are the new thing.

[James Blonde]

56 minutes ago, manxman34 said:

Of course the OU don't do degrees in medicine or dentistry, but it's interesting that you take such a utilitarian view of education. It's the sort of thinking designed to help the lower order know their place. When universal free education was introduced, the idea was to teach the common folk just enough to make them useful to the bosses, but not fill their heads with nasty, subversive ideas about equality and such. It's a shame to see it surfacing still, outside the niche area of the most swivel-eyed tory loons.

You're funny. I like that.

[2112]

On 10/9/2021 at 8:38 PM, James Blonde said:

Kind of depends if your degree would be useful to us as an island. 

If you're studying to be a medical doctor or dentist then it should all be paid for you. 

 

If you're studying media studies, psychology or history then jog on. 

It's harsh but the economy is on it's arse so we shouldn't be funding something just because someone wants a degree.

I would hazard a guess that he is studying a numerical (maths, statistics subject) or scientific or a subject which the DESC have a great difficulty in recruiting decent candidates, let alone candidates prepared to come to the cultural wasteland of this island. I totally get why graduates aren’t coming back to the island and understand how others are investing in themselves but aren’t getting any recognition or financial recompense. Brain Drain by a no brain drain. 

A Friend of mine daughter went to University off island and got a good degree - needless to say isn’t coming back. Got a good job across with prospects, whilst finishing masters degree, and can come back to the island, whilst working remotely from home. Very sad loss to the the island and as has been said in other threads, it speaks volumes of the locate.im, Starship Enterprise scheme, aiming to bring talented new residents to the island. 

[A fool and his money.....]

6 hours ago, Boris Johnson said:

 

A £2.5k Loan each year for students does not really cover much and you have to be basically broke before you get any grants.

Sadly OU students aren't eligible for student loans here. Despite the fact that 80% of OU students fund their studies with a student loan.

The DESC requires all OU students to pay their fees upfront, then claim for a grant. I paid my £6300 fees for this year in early June. I first contacted the Student Awards Office after my exams in mid June. I'm still awaiting their decision (although I know it will be a no). Last year it was late October when I received it.

The OU do have a finance dept, the OUBSA which enables students to pay fees in monthly instalments - it is not available to IoM students (despite being available to students from the UK, EU, Vatican City, Andora, Lichtenstein, to name but a few).

Also the income levels on the DESC website are misleading. Their definition of net income includes - well everything really (even the thousands you've paid in fees for last year!). I think about the only thing not included is pension contributions - though how they expect you to afford to pay them while paying over two thirds your annual salary in fees is any bodies guess.

Edited October 10, 2021 by A fool and his money.....

[2112]

Like with Health on the IOM, Education for mature adults is allowed to wither away. What it is saying, is that you can work away in employment, pay taxes and no doubt contribute to society, without claiming benefits. You are investing in your own future, but merely try to gain financial support, no doubt if any received would be spent in the local economy. Not a good advertisement for investing in a career on the island. I bet if someone worked for the IOMG Civil Sevice, maybe if it were a relevant subject, they may get financial support? 

[Ghost Ship]

Manx students don't pay a higher level of fees than UK students at "conventional" universities, do they - so why is the OU different?  (I know there was a comment at the start of this thread - many years ago - that the UK govt subsidises UK students at the OU to a greater extent than they do at other universities, but is that the reason?).

I'm going back to long before student loans and students paying their own fees, but I was fortunate enough to qualify for a full maintenance grant (plus of course fees were paid for you) for (1) a three year degree course, (2) a one year professional course which I hated and dropped out of and then had to repay IOMG all the fees etc, and then (3) IOMG were kind enough to stump up another year for me to do a master's degree.

Apart from the generational unfairness of younger students not being able to enjoy the generous grants etc that students like me could, it seems particularly barmy for the IOMG not to give appropriate financial assistance to OU students who will stay on the island and contribute to the local economy - more so if like A fool and his money... the student is studying for a qualification to allow them to join a profession that is in short supply on the island and for which IOMG is happy to pay a premium to attract teachers from off-island. 

Wouldn't if make sense for IOMG to negotiate with the OU (or UK govt) to get a better deal for Manx students?  

[The Duck of Atholl]

5 hours ago, Ghost Ship said:

Manx students don't pay a higher level of fees than UK students at "conventional" universities, do they - so why is the OU different?  (I know there was a comment at the start of this thread - many years ago - that the UK govt subsidises UK students at the OU to a greater extent than they do at other universities, but is that the reason?).

I'm going back to long before student loans and students paying their own fees, but I was fortunate enough to qualify for a full maintenance grant (plus of course fees were paid for you) for (1) a three year degree course, (2) a one year professional course which I hated and dropped out of and then had to repay IOMG all the fees etc, and then (3) IOMG were kind enough to stump up another year for me to do a master's degree.

Apart from the generational unfairness of younger students not being able to enjoy the generous grants etc that students like me could, it seems particularly barmy for the IOMG not to give appropriate financial assistance to OU students who will stay on the island and contribute to the local economy - more so if like A fool and his money... the student is studying for a qualification to allow them to join a profession that is in short supply on the island and for which IOMG is happy to pay a premium to attract teachers from off-island. 

Wouldn't if make sense for IOMG to negotiate with the OU (or UK govt) to get a better deal for Manx students?  

Some English Universities do treat IOM students as international students.IIRC Cambridge do

 

12 hours ago, Boris Johnson said:

The daft thing is that I can not imagine we are talking 1,000's of people either so it would not be a huge sum of money in a government budget type of way

One of my daughters friends is doing a Masters on the island, (don't think its OU) and I was very surprised when she told me her friends parents were having to pay for all of the, not inconsiderable fees (Approx. £10k IIRC for the 2 years plus books etc) as there was literally zero help from government. This is a young lady that has been away to Uni and returned to work on the island which is what the gov want? 

IMHO there should at least be loans available for things like this and also living expenses for off island Uni courses, which despite the Gov paying about £7.5k of the yearly fees, still costs parents a fortune which must stop a lot of students doing degrees?

A £2.5k Loan each year for students does not really cover much and you have to be basically broke before you get any grants.

The Govt won't fund higher degrees. I imagine that your daughter's friend will have received assistance for her undergraduate degree but funding usually stops thereafter.

[Galen]

When I started the original thread 15 years ago I was the proverbial angry young man. It incensed me (and continues to do so) that there considerable talent in our community for which having a degree is necessary to getting certain jobs / promotion. (the fact that only a small portion of what is learnt on the degree is often actually used in practice is a separate issue!)

In fairness, since 2006 things have changed with access to education through online learning really taking off and IOM students being more recognised in terms of fee parity with UK students. However, for those that are on the "wrong side" of the digital divide it becomes a double whammy - high costs of courses and the initial costs of a computer and internet access.

Added to which, as I personally found out, the provider of the courses (in my case the OU) periodically review the content of their courses and change them part way through. They do this by preventing new entrants to the old course and then for a period run a tandem course, tapering the old course out and launching the new one. This can then mean that the content of the old course which was recognised by a professional body, is no longer valid, the professional body only recognising the new course content. The only way round this is to stop the current (old course) and start the new one - meaning that the learning to date on the old course is wasted along with the fees that have been paid. In my case, I could not afford the new course and changed career direction.

At the end of the day it has to be excepted that education establishments are businesses first and foremost, the education of its customers (ie students) being secondary to the organisations financial well-being and future.

 

Edited October 11, 2021 by Galen
typo on date

[Roger Mexico]

8 hours ago, 2112 said:

I bet if someone worked for the IOMG Civil Sevice, maybe if it were a relevant subject, they may get financial support? 

Probably not.  One of the most notable things about the Manx Civil Service is its insistence that government employees should only do special on-Island courses and qualifications supplied by them, rather than going outside and being polluted by those funny outsiders with their filthy foreign ideas (such as competence or serving the public).  They even have a special Department Learning, Education and Development (LEaD - geddit!) which from memory employs 40+ people and has about four sites round the Island.  It means that everyone can be awarded top marks and have none of this pesky external assessment that might highlight failings.  Marking your own homework is the Manx government speciality.

So I would imagine they would not want to encourage their staff doing external courses.  Similarly having members of the public getting such qualifications would be seen as dubious and they don't want them getting above themselves.

[2112]

Basically it’s an house IOMCFHE except it’s courses are internal and examined internal as opposed to external? So they create the courses and the syllabus to suit and examine accordingly? I’m now assuming that the course or training is only really relevant to the IOMCS, and obviously as not an external qualification or proper professional training, wouldn’t be recognised by proper professional employers on the island or UK, though I could be wrong.

Isnt one of the training or brainwashing centres opposite the Santon Motel?  I can imagine if the IOMG education and training employs 40+ People, there is a chance in years to come that more little empires being created. 
 

Where does the University College Mann fit into the grand scheme of things? It sounds like IOMG must think that their training is a cut above, or they don’t rate the level of teaching?

Edited October 11, 2021 by 2112

[Roger Mexico]

1 hour ago, 2112 said:

Isnt one of the training or brainwashing centres opposite the Santon Motel?  I can imagine if the IOMG education and training employs 40+ People, there is a chance in years to come that more little empires being created. 

Where does the University College Mann fit into the grand scheme of things? It sounds like IOMG must think that their training is a cut above, or they don’t rate the level of teaching?

Santon Old School is the Professional Development Centre for teachers and the like[1].  Similarly Port Erin Police Station is used for Home Affairs staff, police and so on.  For all I know every Department has its own, probably equally inconvenient to get to for many people. 

You'd think that if some of these courses were so helpful  to professional development, that they would only be too pleased to offer them for a price to outside business.  But apparently not.

 

[1]  On one of the election programmes Donald Gelling was bitterly remarking that they closed the school down on the grounds they couldn't afford the repairs and then the civil servants took it over and refitted it to the highest standards for themselves.