Topaz Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Bloody hell. That's all way above my head. I'm really impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 This little article from the European Space Agency is fascinating. With that number of stars out there if you add on planets the number is mind-blowingly huge. So the chances of some form of life other than ours must be close to certain. Maybe it is best though if it is a long way away... Stars are not scattered randomly through space, they are gathered together into vast groups known as galaxies. The Sun belongs to a galaxy called the Milky Way. Astronomers estimate there are about 100 thousand million stars in the Milky Way alone. Outside that, there are millions upon millions of other galaxies also! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbie Bobster Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 This little article from the European Space Agency is fascinating. With that number of stars out there if you add on planets the number is mind-blowingly huge. So the chances of some form of life other than ours must be close to certain. Maybe it is best though if it is a long way away...Stars are not scattered randomly through space, they are gathered together into vast groups known as galaxies. The Sun belongs to a galaxy called the Milky Way. Astronomers estimate there are about 100 thousand million stars in the Milky Way alone. Outside that, there are millions upon millions of other galaxies also! Have a look at the Drake equation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation (apologies about the wikipedia citation...) N is the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which communication might be possible. Latest best estimates (from the article, ymmv) are that N = 2.31, which is not huge, as we would have to separate out 2-ish potentially very weak and intermittent signals over the entire sky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutley Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 Have a look at the Drake equation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation (apologies about the wikipedia citation...) N is the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which communication might be possible. Latest best estimates (from the article, ymmv) are that N = 2.31, which is not huge, as we would have to separate out 2-ish potentially very weak and intermittent signals over the entire sky. Drake was interviewed on Das Spiegel recently: link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbie Bobster Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Mutley (obliquely) and Drake refer to the estimate for L (the expected lifetime of such a civilization for the period that it can communicate across interstellar space). Changing this definition to "the expected lifetime of such a civilization for the period that it wishes to communicate across interstellar space" might reduce L from 10,000 to maybe a couple of hundred years. Either civilizations become more efficient and reduce their use of broadcast technologies in exchange for optical/narrowcast ones, or they discover the reason that other civilizations aren't broadcasting is because the psychotic machine civilizations beloved of SF would come and whup-ass them. Reducing L in this manner would reduce N to >>1 and is a potential, albeit highly speculative, solution to the Fermi paradox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lao Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Good idea Chinahand to move this ongoing discussion back to a more fitting thread. Ah the Drake equation: convincing nerds they had a chance of getting laid since 1960! so life on mars? if it does develop will they get a visit from Jesus too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 I'm a great believer in UFOs - people see objects in the sky which they can't identify all the time - but am profoundly sceptical about flying saucers; astronomers continually scan the skies for near earth objects, if these guys started reporting little green men rather than Psychics in New York or Cow Molesters in Idaho I'd be more interested. Maybe these saucers have a romulan cloaking device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 This little article from the European Space Agency is fascinating. With that number of stars out there if you add on planets the number is mind-blowingly huge. So the chances of some form of life other than ours must be close to certain. Maybe it is best though if it is a long way away...Stars are not scattered randomly through space, they are gathered together into vast groups known as galaxies. The Sun belongs to a galaxy called the Milky Way. Astronomers estimate there are about 100 thousand million stars in the Milky Way alone. Outside that, there are millions upon millions of other galaxies also! Is it not we who "gather" these "random" stars into groups that we call galaxies, making them not so random? I mean surely the Sun only belongs to a galaxy called the Milky Way because we have have determined that it idoes.? Anyway not my speciality, just asking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seahorse Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 The chances of anything coming from Mars are a million to one , We all know that's not true dont we? If we keep the swine flu thing going, they wont have a chance to take over our planet!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manshimajin Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 Latest best estimates (from the article, ymmv) are that N = 2.31, which is not huge, as we would have to separate out 2-ish potentially very weak and intermittent signals over the entire sky. Is there an equation for 'life forms' rather than communicating civilisations? A methane cloud on Mars caused by bacteria is certainly not a major civilisation but is a potential sign of primitive life. Now there is also talk of potential life forms on a moon of Saturn as mentioned here. If that applied in many planets in solar systems then there would be a massive number of primitive and basic life forms in the Universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluemonday Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 Will highly advanced life necessarily be corporeal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 Is there an equation for 'life forms' rather than communicating civilisations? A methane cloud on Mars caused by bacteria is certainly not a major civilisation but is a potential sign of primitive life. Now there is also talk of potential life forms on a moon of Saturn as mentioned here. If that applied in many planets in solar systems then there would be a massive number of primitive and basic life forms in the Universe. I guess it depends on what you define as being able to support life. So far this has been limited to 'earth like' planets, because the only evidence of life is on ours. I think it'd be impossible to guess at the chances of life on non earth like planets, because we'd have no idea what type of life that would be. Life, but not as we know it! Going off into fantasy again for a bit, I loved Peter F Hamilton's depiction of entirely energy based life forms in his Nights Dawn books. It got a bit bogged down with souls and the like, but it was brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cret Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 The chances of anything coming from Mars are a million to one Bah. I was going to say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman2 Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 I'm re-opening this thread which is where the current MM2, Slim, Dr Dave, Me slag fest should really be and where a very minor round one was actually fought back in January (which MM2 forgot about - its only 6 months ago MM2 - I'd worry if my memory was that poor!) This BBC report about under surface oceans on Saturn's moon Enceladus is interesting. If there are oceans, plus heat from tital forces from Saturn, then its highly likely there will be black smokers - and black smokers on Earth are rich in life almost totally independent of the sun's energy. Hence it is a possibility that life may have developed around a black smoker buried in an ocean deep in the crust of Enceladus. Amazing. Bad Astronomy has a more complicated take on the science - the paper providing the evidence of an ocean is published in Nature - and the very same edition has another paper which directly contradicts the result. It all revolves around signals for Sodium and whether it is or is not present in water which surrounds the moon in a halo. The first papers says it is there, the second says its not. Who's got their results wrong - that is up to science to find out and shows how absolutely contradictory positions are common in research. Both teams will have invested years of their lives coming to these conclusions - and they'll fight it out, paper by paper over the next few years to find out which is right. Fantastic, fascinating research - with a tantilizing hope that it may end with the descovery of real aliens! Oh and it's all about ice and water vapour in the vacumn of space - Saturn's rings - stable for millions of years - and made of what - mainly ICE. Intersting that isn't it, MM2. MM2 I've no idea how long it takes for ice particles to entirely sublimate into vapour around the shuttle - but lots of research has been done looking at debris and vapour floating around the shuttle and its affects on observations from the shuttle. Optical contamination measurements on early Shuttle missions - The results recorded throughout a 32° field-of-view indicate high particle concentrations during early mission operations. These decay to a quiescent rate of 500 particles of >10-µm radius observed per orbit. Optical observations from the Space Shuttle - The 10-color, near UV to near IR sky-scanning SIA experiment was affected at all wavelengths by Shuttle-induced contaminant sky glows arising from thruster firings and from particulates originating with the Orbiter and its payload. Nighttime low-light-level observations were limited by fast-moving bright 'clouds' connected with and immediately following the frequent vernier thruster firings. 500 particles observed per orbit, fast moving bright clouds - fascinating stuff - MM2 if you were being objective you'd have to be considering these papers in any analysis of the tether video etc - a comprehensive analysis would take years, but then again that's what the scientists publishing in Nature are doing - spending years of their lives, billions of pounds in telescope, and satellite time patiently looking for evidence of alien life. Of course these people would naturally be totally uninterested in solid evidence of mile wide space ships in low earth orbit - totally, not relevent at all to their years of patient work - and of course the pay offs from the CIA help. you just cannot help yourself can you. with the conspiracy nut jibes yet quote me saying anything conspiritorial no chance. all beautifully crafted accussations .. nothing more than wind and piss. i do however have no problem in coming to terms with intelligent extraterrestrial life either existing now or in the last few billions of years .. i also have no qualms accepting that said intelligences would wonder about their origins and their environs just as we here on earth do .. and like us here on earth sent out probes of far superior technology to ours to wander the galaxies so that they could wonder at and look in awe at their spacial surroundings for as long as they existed or their future existance. i also feel that stephen hawking thoughts on specie survival makes it imperitive that any race of intelligent beings would look at colonisation of nearby planets as indeed humans have cast an eye upon. if that makes me a retard in your book then thats fine by me .. only i would appreciate it if the next time you feel the urge to call me a retard you do so to my face. lets start here then. 2 clips of the same event an event i have never claimed anywhere at any time are little green men visiting earth or its spacial borders. the solid static light sources are obviously stars .. what i would like you to do with as little personal insults and dripping sarcasm is explain what you think is going on in those clips as they do interest me now and indeed when i first saw them. it would help if you catalogued your reply in such a way. the light sources .. point one plus sub catagory 1a ice crystals 2a meteorites 3a space debri etc so that the thread does not turn to shit once slim starts the normal trashing proceedures. i see 6 points of contention with the assimilation of the clips below the history of the clips is well established. point 1 the objects point 2 the camera the footage was shot with. point 3 the platform the camera was mounted on i.e. shuttle. point 4 the focal point i.e. the tether. point 5 the observations of the flight crew and their control centre. point 6 the proffesional points of view by various astro- physicists etc. these simple objectives will help with informed comment to come to a rational and informed opinion between us all .. as the amount of data avaliable to us interested bodies is enormous. i have an open mind on this subject however i have strong opinions on what i am not watching. 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