More Great Publicity For The Island....

[Roger Mexico]

To spell it out: We are told that gays are discriminated against. They seek equality.

In fact they have a pretty hefty lobby - starting right at the top. All the alphabet soup organisations are seemingly into positive discrimination. However, disabled, families etc suffer exactly the same discrimination in the property rental world yet who helps them? Some are seemingly more equal than others.

PS Animal Farm is a comment on communism aka collectivism

 

You seem to be falling for some sort of myth that there is some evil conspiracy around, without actually giving any details. Which "alphabet soup organisations are seemingly into positive discrimination" on the Isle of Man would those be then? Even if it were true of the UK (which I doubt), this sort of paranoid rhetoric that their Press produces and you are repeating may not apply here. More likely failure to tackle such discrimination is due to the usual mixture of laziness, incompetence, favouritism and pettiness that our bureaucracy specialises in.

 

You particularly seem have missed the point here, which is about discrimination in the provision of services[1]. Any laws that would ban discrimination on the grounds of race or sexuality would almost certainly ban it on grounds relating to disability as well. Even if it didn't the "alphabet soup organisations" that represent the disabled on the Island (one of the strengths of life here) should be campaigning for it - you would hope successfully.

 

[1] This means, by the way, that all the talk about allowing people to do what they want with their own 'private' property is nonsense. Once you start taking money for goods and services you are entering into the public world of commerce and all sorts of restrictions will and should apply.

[Roger Mexico]

It doesn't matter whether offence or insult is intended. I can say things about gay people or gay stuff which can be homophobic. I am gay and I have no intention in the least of offending or insulting people just because of their sexuality - but I can be homophobic.

Homophobia is not about offending people or an intention to do so.

 

Um, you do realise that your second paragraph completely contradicts your first?

 

Assuming that that "not" slipped in by mistake (we've all been there, especially at one in the morning) I think you're doing your usual Humpty Dumpty thing of making words mean whatever you want them to mean, rather than what everyone else really uses them for in communicating with other people.

 

The "-phobia" bit of homophobia implies fear and if the word is to mean anything, it should surely be restricted to actions and attitudes that are driven by fear or hatred and cause real and substantial distress etc. Extending it to cover saying something mildly insensitive without intending to, is push the definition so far as to make it meaningless.

[prism10]

There is no such think as 'positive' discrimination in UK equalities legislation.

 

 

http://www.diversitytoolkit.org.uk/glossary/_P/

[manxman1980]

To spell it out: We are told that gays are discriminated against. They seek equality.

In fact they have a pretty hefty lobby - starting right at the top. All the alphabet soup organisations are seemingly into positive discrimination. However, disabled, families etc suffer exactly the same discrimination in the property rental world yet who helps them? Some are seemingly more equal than others.

 

PS Animal Farm is a comment on communism aka collectivism

 

If you look at the UK Equality Act you will see that people with disabilities are given the same rights as everyone else. In fact there is actually a duty placed on employers to make "reasonable adjustments" for people with disabilities to ensure that they are given a level playing field.

 

It is also something that extends into the realms of offering a service - just think how many shops now have arrangements in place to allow wheelchair access (probably the most visible form of disability), then you have all the hearing loops etc.

 

I would imagine that there is an awful lot of unfair discrimination that is unreported as people do not want the hassle of contesting it.

[GhoulishDoolish]

 

To spell it out: We are told that gays are discriminated against. They seek equality.

In fact they have a pretty hefty lobby - starting right at the top. All the alphabet soup organisations are seemingly into positive discrimination. However, disabled, families etc suffer exactly the same discrimination in the property rental world yet who helps them? Some are seemingly more equal than others.

 

PS Animal Farm is a comment on communism aka collectivism

 

If you look at the UK Equality Act you will see that people with disabilities are given the same rights as everyone else. In fact there is actually a duty placed on employers to make "reasonable adjustments" for people with disabilities to ensure that they are given a level playing field.

 

It is also something that extends into the realms of offering a service - just think how many shops now have arrangements in place to allow wheelchair access (probably the most visible form of disability), then you have all the hearing loops etc.

 

I would imagine that there is an awful lot of unfair discrimination that is unreported as people do not want the hassle of contesting it.

The law may be fair but the emphasis given to media reporting seems to be pretty biased if you measure importance by closeness to the front page and the number of column inches.

 

The LGBT lobby seems to be pretty formiddable, you dont think they might have friends in high places do you?

[manxman1980]

The law may be fair but the emphasis given to media reporting seems to be pretty biased if you measure importance by closeness to the front page and the number of column inches.

 

 

The LGBT lobby seems to be pretty formiddable, you dont think they might have friends in high places do you?

 

I suspect the real reason for the priority in the media is driven locally by the article that started this thread and that we have just had an international day against homophobia.

 

In the UK the Government is presently trying to push through a law change to allow same sex couples to marry which is splitting the Conservatives and therefore is "major" news.

 

The same happens in the case of religious discrimination and racism - they get a load of column inches when the media feels there is a juicy story. The rest of the time it is ignored.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

not

 

Um, you do realise that your second paragraph completely contradicts your first?

 

Where is the contradiction? Not sure what you mean.

I think you're doing your usual Humpty Dumpty thing of making words mean whatever you want them to mean, rather than what everyone else really uses them for in communicating with other people.

The "-phobia" bit of homophobia implies fear and if the word is to mean anything, it should surely be restricted to actions and attitudes that are driven by fear or hatred and cause real and substantial distress etc. Extending it to cover saying something mildly insensitive without intending to, is push the definition so far as to make it meaningless.

You would be incorrect here. I have covered this a number of times here, but homophobia is the equivalent of racism. It doesn’t necessarily imply fear. In fact, fear has nothing to do with it. Think about it. How credible is it that people fear homosexuality. They don’t. It doesn’t make sense. It is a poor word to refer to oppressive behaviour.

 

You could have homophobic behaviour that causes little obvious offence to people but which could be very socially damaging.

 

This situation is no different to racism, which isn’t simply about hatred, but rather about the negative, hypocritical and unfair way people are perceived and all that follows from such perceptions.

 

Therefore, using the term to mean other than fear or hatred is not to make it meaningless, but is to be more correct in what it means.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

The LGBT lobby seems to be pretty formiddable, you dont think they might have friends in high places do you?

On the Island? Are you kidding? Not formidable at all and no...there really are no friends in high places at all!

[La_Dolce_Vita]

As an aside then, LDV, i'm interested in hearing your view on the tv show, 'Vicious'. Here we have an example of the old, (negative?) stereotyping of two 'old queens' played by, er, two 'old queens'!

I'm of the opinion that this programme does no favours to the perception of homosexuality and just re-inforces the stereotypical 'mincing fag' syndrome amongst the hetero's.

Would you describe the content of 'Vicious' as homophobic?

I've found the opinions of some gay people i know to be very mixed about this.

Ta....

I have only seen very short clips of this programme, as I don't watch TV and what I have seen on the internet makes it looks like a really, really shit comedy. (Is it as bad as it looks?)

 

It is a difficult one. I can't comment too much, given I haven't seen much of it, but I would tend to say not. If it simply shows two queeny men or very camp men then that's absolutely fine.

 

The only thing I don't like are tired and boring cliched jokes and references being made, only because they are unimaginative and unsurprising. This programme's humour just seems very cheap but harmless. A bit like a tamer version of Mrs Brown.

 

The question ought to be why it could be thought to be homophobic. Does it reinforce a stereotype?

 

The fact is a lot of men are queeny and very camp. And that's not a bad thing, it's a good thing. And yeah, not everyone is queeny and very camp. But nowadays you do get a lot of TV personalities who show a good range of outward expression.

 

If all that was on telly was very camp (and low camp) personalities and humour then I would think there are homophobic undercurrents. But I don't think this programme alone can qualify because of the content.

 

However, given the fact that gay people should really not give a shit what straight people think of gay people in matters such as this, I would have concerns for the gay folk who get annoyed and angry at things like this. Why are they bothered?

[Lonan3]

Like LDV, I've only seen snippets of it - but the thing I did notice was that it stars two very fine actors and, as Sir Ian McKellen has long been a very vocal campaigner for gay rights, I can't imagine that he'd willingly be involved in a production with negative values in that respect.

From the adverts, it's about a couple who have been together for many years, which seems to be something of an endorsement for long-term relationships and, given the quality of the actors, I assume that it's also witty and funny. So, what could really be 'negative' about that?

[GhoulishDoolish]

 

The LGBT lobby seems to be pretty formiddable, you dont think they might have friends in high places do you?

On the Island? Are you kidding? Not formidable at all and no...there really are no friends in high places at all!

Hypothetically speaking, of course, Imagine a little island and some of the key people had something in common

 

Wichard Wutt editor of newspaper

Stavid Xristian head of Council

Dingus Dongus head of 10,000 employee firm

Mickey Chuffinghouse ex top plod

 

that would be formidable n'est ce pas?

[quilp]

Like LDV, I've only seen snippets of it - but the thing I did notice was that it stars two very fine actors and, as Sir Ian McKellen has long been a very vocal campaigner for gay rights, I can't imagine that he'd willingly be involved in a production with negative values in that respect.

From the adverts, it's about a couple who have been together for many years, which seems to be something of an endorsement for long-term relationships and, given the quality of the actors, I assume that it's also witty and funny. So, what could really be 'negative' about that?

Both very fine actors indeed. I just can't help seeing their portrayals as Inman/Grayson-esque and i've always felt that the parodies like these play into the hands/psyche of gay-haters and bigots. For this reason i find it all a little dated.

"While having known gay actors playing gay characters in ITV peak-time is undoubtedly an advance from the days when Noel Coward had to write hetero husbands for himself to play, every character is a stereotype: McKellan's Freddie is the ''Arthur'' bitch (the original title was ''Vicious Old Queens), Frances de la Tour plays what used to be called a ''fag-hag'' and Jacobi's 'Stuart' is a camp, fey ''Martha'',a first cousin not very much at all removed from Mr.Humphries: voice shrill, wrists limp, obsessively on the phone to Mother....''

I've quoted this from a review that might help explain where i'm coming from. The re-inforcement of a hated stereotype that lowers credibility and devalues the gay pride thingy as a whole, a step back, in other words.

Just a personal view....

 

 

(oh dear, am i a closet homophobe...?)

[La_Dolce_Vita]

Hypothetically speaking, of course, Imagine a little island and some of the key people had something in common

 

Wichard Wutt editor of newspaper

Stavid Xristian head of Council

Dingus Dongus head of 10,000 employee firm

Mickey Chuffinghouse ex top plod

 

that would be formidable n'est ce pas?

And you think they could form part of this lobby? None of those people are part of any group or united 'front' and none of them are involved in LGBT politics over here. There isn't even an LGBT group anymore.

Why are you typing like a baby; who is Dingus Dongus and the Mickey Chuffinghouse?

[angelo]

It's just a squirmier version of the Odd Couple, without the wit or decent actors.

[John Wright]

Its a sort of ghastly parody of Julian & Sandy from Round the Horne 50 years ago and not as witty or well written or acted. Ken Williams Hugh Paddick and Kenneth Horne were totally subversive then. Just think two gay men sending up a straight guy/man and making all sorts of gay sexual references and outrageous comments. How it got past the BBC censors I will never understand. This was before law change in England even

 

I dont object to the camp. Its not a gay stereotype. Its a sub culture and there are camp gay men and camp straight men. Its just very badly done

 

There lots in camp needs to be preserved and enjoyed, like polari or palari, gay slang or argot, which is funny and was very subversive allowing two or more gay men to chat about straight guys without anyone knowing what they were on about