Blade Runner Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 There'd be an uproar in any other country if over half the civil servants were born in a foreign country. Can you imagine if half of the Saudi Arabian government was made up of Israelis? Or half of the German government was made up of French people? It's ludicrous and has gotten out of control. Even half of the half who were born here are not Manx but young people who were born here because their parents came here to work --- probably in the civil service as well! Yes, if Germany's civil service was staffed by French people then there would be an uproar but that is not a comparable scenario. Dont forget we are not an independent country like Germany, France or Israel, most normal people dont really distinguish between "Manx" and people born in the UK, either in their daily dealings with people or if they were to consider the make up of the islands civil service. I also very much doubt your assumption that 50% are not "Manx", that sounds like a made up figure. It would also be very silly to exclude people who are not "Manx" from public service here as you are cutting off a valuable supply of expertise. Do you see people kicking off that the Governor of the Bank of England is a Canadian? Insular actions will never serve the island as a whole well, dont forget that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 Dont forget we are not an independent country like Germany, France or Israel, most normal people dont really distinguish between "Manx" and people born in the UK, either in their daily dealings with people or if they were to consider the make up of the islands civil service. The Isle of Man is an independent country and we are not part of any other country. Just what other country do you think we're a part of? There is a distinction between Manx and British, so by "most normal people" I assume you mean ignorant people who don't know any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blade Runner Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 Dont forget we are not an independent country like Germany, France or Israel, most normal people dont really distinguish between "Manx" and people born in the UK, either in their daily dealings with people or if they were to consider the make up of the islands civil service. The Isle of Man is an independent country and we are not part of any other country. Just what other country do you think we're a part of? There is a distinction between Manx and British, so by "most normal people" I assume you mean ignorant people who don't know any better. Maybe I should have said Sovereign State, thats what I meant, as you well know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 Maybe I should have said Sovereign State, thats what I meant, as you well know. We're no less a sovereign state than any other state, we're just as sovereign as the UK is. Please clarify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojomonkey Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 There'd be an uproar in any other country if over half the civil servants were born in a foreign country. Can you imagine if half of the Saudi Arabian government was made up of Israelis? Or half of the German government was made up of French people? It's ludicrous and has gotten out of control. Even half of the half who were born here are not Manx but young people who were born here because their parents came here to work --- probably in the civil service as well! Where are your figures to support the notion that half of the IoM's civil servants weren't born on the Island? I simply don't believe that is true. Any chance of you answering my question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 he Isle of Man is an independent country and we are not part of any other country. The Isle of Man is a country and by definition it is not part of any other country, but it is not an independent country. It does not handle its own foreign relations for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 The Isle of Man is an independent country and we are not part of any other country. The Isle of Man is a country and by definition it is not part of any other country, but it is not an independent country. It does not handle its own foreign relations for example. Foreign policy is a royal prerogative held by the Lord of Mann, our head of state. It is only natural that there would be a uniform foreign policy shared between the countries over which she is head of state. That royal prerogative has been vested in the Prime Minister of the UK. So of course there is a crossover and constitutional relationship between the UK and the Isle of Man. This works in our favour and doesn't really concern me. I don't see how it undermines any claim of independence. Clearly if you want to start getting technical, there would be such thing as an independent country anywhere on the planet. Stronger nations always set the agenda for smaller nations; this has been the case since the dawn of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 I have every intention of joining the debate on here at the same time as taking it out to the general public through public meetings, putting the information on line and engaging in radio programmes and through newspaper articles etc. This will happen next year once my department, the treasury and our consultants have pulled together a set of options for people to consider. How will you know that the set of options you have "pulled together" will be the right ones? I suspect that the projected NI take is insufficient to meet the projected pension, healthcare et al costs at the current level. So to shift the blame away from Tynwald there will be a "consultation" where Joe Public will be encouraged to choose how they rob Peter to pay Paul. Then they only have themselves to blame for the outcome. Winner! Of course, the lack of forward thinking that has led to this shameful reduction in service levels will be quietly forgotten.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 Foreign policy is a royal prerogative held by the Lord of Mann, our head of state. It is only natural that there would be a uniform foreign policy shared between the countries over which she is head of state. That royal prerogative has been vested in the Prime Minister of the UK. So of course there is a crossover and constitutional relationship between the UK and the Isle of Man. This works in our favour and doesn't really concern me. I don't see how it undermines any claim of independence. Clearly if you want to start getting technical, there would be such thing as an independent country anywhere on the planet. Stronger nations always set the agenda for smaller nations; this has been the case since the dawn of time. That's not actually true. Before Revestment in 1765 when the Lord of Mann was a different person from the British monarch, such matters were still part of what was decided by the British Government. And it was the British monarch who assigned who held the title of Lord of Mann, first to the Stanleys and then (after much confusion at the end of the 16th century) to the 6th Earl of Derby. In fact the Isle of Man has never been independent - even in Viking times, the King of Man was under the nominal control of Dublin or the Norwegian throne. Before then we simply don't know, but it is unlikely there was any single controlling authority on the Island to qualify it as a country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moghrey Mie Posted December 14, 2013 Share Posted December 14, 2013 Is there a thread where we can discuss the future of work and pensions? I thought this might be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentience Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 He keeps doing this, making posters assume his input really does positively contribute to a sensible discussion about what are, honestly, incredibly important issues. Government must love this type of poster. Can nobody see how his 'contributions' (sic) allow political observers (IOMG et al) write-off MF folk as 'just a bunch of whining uninformed locals'. Even those posters who have offered serious thought to these issues seem to have been taken in and responded!! GC must be smiling......all the way to his pension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 I wonder, in 37 years time, what percentage of IOM residents will have not been born on the island. The percentage is increasing through past censuses. The percentage of IOM residents born on the Island has been pretty stable for the last 20 years. From the Censuses: 1991 49.6% 1996 49.9% 2001 48.0% 2006 47.6% 2011 48.1% So on that basis the answer "a bit under half". Edited to add: Sources 1996-2011 online via the Treasury website 1991 Kermode Offshore Island Politics p4 Thanks - over half I think you mean. There was a 'not' in the question Though I'm sure though I read somewhere in the last census (or provisional version) it was 56% not born here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 He keeps doing this, making posters assume his input really does positively contribute to a sensible discussion about what are, honestly, incredibly important issues. Government must love this type of poster. Can nobody see how his 'contributions' (sic) allow political observers (IOMG et al) write-off MF folk as 'just a bunch of whining uninformed locals'. Even those posters who have offered serious thought to these issues seem to have been taken in and responded!! GC must be smiling......all the way to his pension. Whether or not the Isle of Man is an independent sovereign nation is a lot more important than a number crunching exercise. The answer to this thread is already obvious - mass redundancy - and so a debate really isn't necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 The answer to this thread is already obvious - mass redundancy - and so a debate really isn't necessary. A kind of them or us situation? Take many of them out before they take the whole lot down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jefferson Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 The answer to this thread is already obvious - mass redundancy - and so a debate really isn't necessary. A kind of them or us situation? Take many of them out before they take the whole lot down? Bingo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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