Manx1e44 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Chris Robertshaw is seeking a 2014 national debate on 'Pensions'. Can the subject really be debated in isolation? Leading up to the next election, let's thrash out the whole future of jobs, work creation, and - yes, pensions - in our island economy You start Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Onchan Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Seems to me that if the Minister is looking for a referendum type "approval' from the masses then he and his COMIN colleagues need to be upfront and absolutely transparent with the numbers, and that includes what their thinking is on other long term commitments, such as the MEA loan, Pinewood (at what point would the investment (such as it is) be called in) etc. COMIN's apparent contemptuous attitude for the people who put them where they are has to change. So IMO no, the pension issue cannot be taken in isolation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTail Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 I don't see how a rational debate can be held. The State pension seems to be an entirely political decision. Forget arguments about "x amount has been paid in" and "There is a reserve of y". It seems to be all smoke and mirrors. If the politicians decide to cut pensions then they will cut them, if they decide to increase them then they will. I think that a major part of the problem is that NI covers Pensions, Health and Social Security. Many of us like to think of our NI as a pension contribution when in fact it is being used to pay for unemployment benefits, supporting alcoholics, junkies, paying for doctors (some) dentists etc. What useful contribution to the debate can we make? My advise is either: save as much as you can yourself to provide for yourself in old age - anything from the Govt is the cream on top or spend everything you have, save nothing, get a council house and rely on the state to pay for you. Personally I go for the first option, maybe I am a sucker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Shoe Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 My question is: which Pension takes precedence, the PS or State? Can the people about to receive their PS Pensions legislate to reduce or delay the State Pension in order to keep their own Pensions safe? Isn't this the ultimate conflict of interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon selector Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 My question is: which Pension takes precedence, the PS or State? Can the people about to receive their PS Pensions legislate to reduce or delay the State Pension in order to keep their own Pensions safe? Isn't this the ultimate conflict of interest? From other thread: Can the people about to receive their PS Pensions legislate to reduce or delay the State Pension while their own Pensions remain safe? Is this a conflict of interest? An abuse of power? Robertshaw has been asked precisely this on one of his much loved jaunts on Manx Radio. In his own inimitable way he explained how he was in agreement with the caller but you see, it is all about [Robertshaw favourite word alert] 'fairness'. You know, the 'we're all in it together' approach. 'Share the burden' type of thing. Robertshaw's idea of fairness is to screw the poorer people and those less able to defend themselves, them that he sees as don't matter in society. He'll get around to perhaps looking at the rich and lucrative some other time. Robertshaw, I feel, is more-or-less the devil incarnate, with a good sprinkling of Maggie Thatcher thrown in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 And it should be realistic with the numbers. There is far too much spin on the growth of imaginary GNI - Turnover is vanity, revenue is sanity etc. There are far too many unemployed or unemployables hidden i.e. not registered as unemployed and not on jobseekers. Far too many employed by the government, civil and public services, which should be reduced by at least 20% over time. If we are looking at 2050 when the main pension pot will start running out, that's 37 years away. Look how much change there has been in the last 37 years. What will be the main income sources for the island approaching 2050? Will there be a worldwide tax by then? Even Nostradamus would find that a toughie. Robertshaw et al will be likely well dead when the time comes. To save for our future it is imperitive we stop the many that blatently milk our present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 My question is: which Pension takes precedence, the PS or State? State. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the too many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Shoe Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 My question is: which Pension takes precedence, the PS or State? State. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the too many. Opinion or law? When a company goes bust owing creditors and the government, the government gets all assets first (unless e-habitant has a van in a nearby lane and a boat about to leave), then creditors, then staff. ETA: so when the IOMG can't pay both, will the OAPs on Marown get their Pension or will AB get his money in the Bahamas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moghrey Mie Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 They've had external consultants in the Department of Social Care for quite a while. Presumably the public debate will be to discuss their findings. They would do well to explain to people how NI and benefits and pensions work. It's not your own personal pot of money that you can collect when you retire. Today's workers are paying for today's pensioners. It seems to me the IOM can't be too out of line with the UK if they want people to come over here and work. They will probably have to introduce the new Flat Rate pension of £144 per week or whatever it is in 2016. And auto-enrolment for all working people seems to make sense to me. Basically they need more money coming in so they pay it out. And the number of pensioners is set to increase dramatically in relation to the number of people who are working and contributing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbon selector Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 It all makes me wish I had taken that civil service fuckwit job instead of doing A levels, degree, career etc. I would be heading a Department or something now (if my rather dimmer school colleagues that did go for the fuckwit civil service jobs are anything to go by). I'd be pushing £100k a year now I'm sure, and getting ready to take my wheelbarrow along to the lump sum dispensory, followed by a good 30 years on a helluva pension. The state pension would be just a fraction of the money coming in. All after a not too stressful career in the Isle of Man Government. Ah well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 My question is: which Pension takes precedence, the PS or State? State. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the too many. Opinion or law? When a company goes bust owing creditors and the government, the government gets all assets first (unless e-habitant has a van in a nearby lane and a boat about to leave), then creditors, then staff. ETA: so when the IOMG can't pay both, will the OAPs on Marown get their Pension or will AB get his money in the Bahamas? The amounts involved are mind bogglingly staggering...I can actually see the day emergency legislation will need to be passed, and there will be actual reductions in what is paid out to AB et al. People should not underestimate what our liabilities are and are likely to become on the current trajectory. Tax over the next 20 years can go two ways in my view: 1) the current route, USA/UK scratching for money during their continued decline, destroying many opportunities for the Manx economy in the process b) the rise of china and other developing economies rejecting this worldwide approach to taxation etc. - with the Isle of Man seeking opportunities to distance itself more from the UK, and becoming more an entry/exit hub for the UK and Europe for goods and services. A great deal of thinking outside the box is required in this debate. Last century was about computers automating and replacing brawn, this century is about computers automating and replacing brains. Even as an engineer, computer engineer etc. given the changes I have already seen in the last 30 years, I find it hard to imagine what our economy might be like in 2050. Many common roles we see today, lawyers, even many doctors - god only knows what roles - may be entirely gone by then replaced by more intelligent machines. Software could even generate its own next version, with little or no human input other than users - users which might also be machines. Nursing homes might even be part automated care etc. Much will happen in 37 years, though I would agree future predictions tend to not pass as fast as they are often predicted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarne Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 They really need to stop pushing these mass debates. People can mass debate in their own homes. Mass debating doesn't solve anything, it just makes you feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tournesol Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 A genuine question. If someone has never worked or been serving a long time in prison, do they get full state pensions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Onchan Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 ...... with the Isle of Man seeking opportunities to distance itself more from the UK, and becoming more an entry/exit hub for the UK and Europe for goods and services. Already happening..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moghrey Mie Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 I don't think there will be many people who have never worked from the age of 18 to 60/65. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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