Israel vs. the rest of the world?

[HeliX]

1 hour ago, Max Power said:

that's what sparked the counter protest

Weeks of attempting to sow a culture war by the likes of Braverman, Sunak and GBNews is what caused the "counter protest".

Why would a rise in the far left be inevitably matched with a rise in the far right?

[Max Power]

38 minutes ago, HeliX said:

Weeks of attempting to sow a culture war by the likes of Braverman, Sunak and GBNews is what caused the "counter protest".

Why would a rise in the far left be inevitably matched with a rise in the far right?

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. 

[HeliX]

4 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. 

No it doesn't. Where's the far left loonies that should've popped up in 1933? I think it's a rather oversimplified and inaccurate way to look at it.

[Max Power]

5 minutes ago, HeliX said:

No it doesn't. Where's the far left loonies that should've popped up in 1933? I think it's a rather oversimplified and inaccurate way to look at it.

You mean the Communist Party? I assume you mean in Germany?

[HeliX]

Just now, Max Power said:

You mean the Communist Party? I assume you mean in Germany?

I mean anywhere. There wasn't an equally left party to the far right Nazis. Not that I'm expecting there to be, cause I don't think that's how it works.

[Chinahand]

 

26 minutes ago, HeliX said:

There wasn't an equally left party to the far right Nazis

Helix, are you genuinely unaware of the nexus between revolutionary communism and the rise of fascism?

 

[Chinahand]

 

 

[HeliX]

15 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

 

Helix, are you genuinely unaware of the nexus between revolutionary communism and the rise of fascism?

 

I'm suggesting that there wasn't an "equally left" alternative that arose a result of the Nazis. Nor is there an "equally right" to the "far left", whatever they may be, of late.

[Chinahand]

I don't understand what you are trying to say.  Nazism was forged in the street battles between revolutionary communism and the SA in the 1920s. 

That polarisation destroyed German democracy and lead to the establishment of Hitler's dictatorship. 1933 is the end of that process, not the beginning. 

You can play counterfactuals where the Spartacus League or Roter Frontkämpferbund were successful in their fight against the fascists, but to pretend there was no far left party influencing and being influenced by the Nazis is massively politically naive. 

[HeteroErectus]

8 hours ago, Chinahand said:

Let's stick to topic on this one

OK, I'll Remove all that shit about Caen and see what's left. Oh and anything that mentions me without relevance to Israel/Gaza.

8 hours ago, Chinahand said:

Heard of Just War Theory by any chance? Heard the expression "war is the continuance of politics by other means?"

Yes.  

(ask more open questions for a richer debate)

8 hours ago, Chinahand said:

Now, there is then October 7th - what was the political aim of those attacks? My firm understanding is that it was to kill people where ever they could be found - whether at a pop festival, travelling peacefully on their business, or in their homes.

October 7th was the deliberate massacre of over 1,000 people. That was the aim, the objective, the political point of what they were doing. To kill ruthlessly, even babies and children. To spread terror, to polarise, to break growing relationships and raise the political profile of their cause which had been side-lined due to their failure to pursue policies that gained them influence in the cabinets and congresses of the world.

This whole paragraph is essentially just more deliberate ignorance that this war began on the 7th of October. 

This graph is from 2014:

 

It's very hard to find continuous data. But from all that I've seen, 07/10 would be an anomaly. Palestinians are usually killed in far greater numbers than Israelis.

8 hours ago, Chinahand said:

Goodness what is the world coming to?

Oh no! The sky is falling in!!!!!

8 hours ago, Chinahand said:

As I've asked before, and now directly ask you, HeteroErectus.

Should Hamas after the events of 7 October remain in political control over Gaza?

It's ignorant to think, that in a hellscape like Gaza, that our perception of "political control" is relevant. Do you think they are having TV debates to choose their next leader? Arguing over whether to tax the rich more? Maybe back and forth about a big project like HS2?

8 hours ago, Chinahand said:

It is pretty firmly my view the likes of Hamas have actively stopped Palestinians achieving justice, peace and wealth, but that is for another post.

That's your opinion, not fact; similar to Americans that delight in the distress of the Cuban people after having blockaded their country for decades. I've been there myself. A resourceful, friendly nation of people. They do well with what they can source.

Israel established a blockade of Gaza in 2005, 2 years before Hamas took control.

8 hours ago, Chinahand said:

Come HeteroErectus let's see your justifications on how the events of 7th October 2023 were not, as you so gracefully put it, "so remarkable".

My quote was "other than western media, what makes the 7th so remarkable?

Thousands of people died in Mozambique a couple of years ago. I didn't see rolling coverage on the BBC. There is nothing on MF either. 

Ironically, the only content mentioning Mozambique on MF, during the peak of the fighting, was this:

within a topic regarding the 24/7 news cycle at the time, COVID. 

My fairly straightforward point. What makes these people being killed on 07/10 remarkable? (Why are we talking about it right now, here, in the west?) Yes, we are talking about it because it's on the western media.

If you want to talk about my message, what do you think of this chart I included? (attached again below)

 

 

 

Will you condemn Israel for killing 4506+ children? No? Don't you believe in the material you pretentiously asked if I had read? JUS EN BELLO/proportionality. Are those stats proportionate? 

I'll leave you with this;

 

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by HeteroErectus
Thought I'd refrain from mentioning his repeated digs at my name being the jealousy of a low-T old man.

[HeliX]

53 minutes ago, Chinahand said:

I don't understand what you are trying to say.  Nazism was forged in the street battles between revolutionary communism and the SA in the 1920s. 

That polarisation destroyed German democracy and lead to the establishment of Hitler's dictatorship. 1933 is the end of that process, not the beginning. 

You can play counterfactuals where the Spartacus League or Roter Frontkämpferbund were successful in their fight against the fascists, but to pretend there was no far left party influencing and being influenced by the Nazis is massively politically naive. 

Probably my fault, it's not been the best of days.

All I'm saying is that attributing the rise of the far right to the existence of the far left is daft because they're not forcibly linked like that. It's more complicated.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

On 11/11/2023 at 2:46 PM, The Phantom said:

The protests in London.

Does this mean the far-right are now supporting Israel? Does support for Jews trump support for Palestinians? 

The far-right isn't necessarily nazi, as you know, and people see more commonality with Israeli citizens than they do Palestinians Arabs.

My first assumptions on why people are ruled about all of this is largely how populist politics works. I don't think it has anything to do with the far-left.  Where is the far-left or even the left these days?  

People have been on the streets in support of Palestinians or Palestine, etc. and these people, often Muslim (and, therefore, not seen as British) have been reported as making their political presence known in large numbers engaging in symbolic acts, such as sticking flags on things, and vandalism.  That's enough to rile the far-right and drag the lumpen-proles out.

The far-right tends to attract the attention of a lot of people whose education isn't that good on political matters.  When they read already biased gutter-press new articles about terrorist attacks they are not interested in the history or understanding what happened.  It's really seen as just a terrorist attack and therefore reduced to a matter of evil against the innocent.  It's easy for far-right political leaders to drag the working class along with simple, emotive arguments, especially when there is a truth to it.  Of course, the political situation is more complex.

This is all boltered by the mistaken view that the Israeli state is utterly a victim of its situation.

I wouldn't under estimate the effect that government propaganda and biased media has on all of this because support for Israel has shifted a great deal in the last few decades from the left to the right in the USA whilst Europeans governments have also shifted to outright support or approval of Israel in the last two decades. 

 

 

 

[Declan]

11 hours ago, HeliX said:

I'm suggesting that there wasn't an "equally left" alternative that arose a result of the Nazis. Nor is there an "equally right" to the "far left", whatever they may be, of late.

I'm not sure there is much of a "far left" anymore.  The people marching were mostly marching for peace, which should be a centrist position but is currently a mainly a soft left one. 

The extremist marchers are religious zealots and nationalists - traits more associated with the right. 

[Shake me up Judy]

It wasn't very healthy to be far left or communist under the Nazis. You either ended up with a splitting headache or went for a little holiday in the country and didn't come back. It's a bit like the opposition party in Gaza under Hamas. There isn't one now. 

[HeliX]

Braverman gone. Good.