Experiment in direct democracy

[Ham_N_Eggs]

The people behind the direct democracy movement should run as MHK's if they want to influence debates or push direct democracy on the rest of us. If they are unwilling to run then they really can't be that concerned with trying to get direct democracy on the island or are just lazy. By lazy I mean they want to be involved with the Democratic process without the actual responsibility that comes with standing for offices. The "I can't afford to run" line is a major cop-out if they truly cared then sacrifices should be made. You want change get off your arse, get elected on that mandate and make it happen. Until then this Democratic experiment is just a lobby group with potentially undue influence over policy making.

[TheTeapot]

I'm not sure why there is so much hate for this idea.

 

The way our democracy is supposed to work is that you vote for the people who are most likely to best represent your views and do a decent job so that you dont have to worry about stuff.

 

This clearly doesn't work so a change is needed. I don't know what kind of a change, and it doesn't appear anyone else does either, so it is good that some people are having go at something.

 

Obviously this particular approach is massively flawed. Most people can't be arsed or don't feel passionately enough about an issue to get involved so that the people who will will be the ones on the extremes of any given subject. Take for example the abortion laws which recently made the UK press. If they decided to ask about that on their direct democracy page most people would probably think 'yeah, the abortion laws are a bit silly and woman over here should get more support etc' but not actually care enough to take part in any vote or debate. Whereas the happy clappers would be all over it and you'd end up with a vote that suggests 70% of the island are opposed to abortion when clearly they aren't.

 

Fortunately this is only an experiment at the moment, and I wish them.luck with it, but you watch it get the absolute hell slammed out of it.

[James Hampton]

Evening Ladies & Gents.

 

Some people still seem to be struggling with the facts, so just for the record let me go over it again. What's happening at the moment is an experiment, as the topic of the thread rightly states. Some people seem to have concerns about validation process. These concerns have already been publicly acknowledged and the limits of what we're doing at this stage fully accepted. This has been made clear to the MHKs taking part, and will be reiterated when the results are discussed. The results of the polls this week will not be binding upon any decisions in Tynwald, they will be for the MHKs who have taken part to use as they choose at this stage.

Clearly the team could have implemented a system with a much higher level of identification required and this was discussed, however the likelihood then is that we would not have got anyone to take part - for obvious reasons. Getting people on board with minimal effort was the whole point at this stage. The bar has been set very low for this reason and acknowledged as such. The team will be discussing the various options there are to make the votes as verifiable as possible if the idea moves forward. Ultimately the current system of official electoral registration and then voting is largely unverified, so the bar we have to beat isn't exactly high.

 

Some of you obviously have an axe to grind against Phil, and that's fair enough. He's a politician, goes with the territory. I'm sure he can handle the love, and I'm sure he's aware that the views of a handful of angry people on social media are not necessarily those of his wider electorate. Again, just for the record, I first pushed this idea to Phil back in 2011 and he did not think it viable then. I have been pushing him again over the last 7 months or so. There are a number of reasons he is humouring me now, which he has discussed in public, one of which is of course getting re-elected. I'm struggling to see why people find this surprising. To be clear though, the website was my idea, the steam packet vote was my idea. I'm not doing this for Phil, and he's not agreeing to take part for my benefit. He doesn't have access to the voting data and neither do I.

 

As to those of you who think that the basic premise of direct democracy is not a good idea, I guess we could debate the finer points of why you are wrong - starting with the clear and abundant failure of virtually all systems of executive government - but is there really any point? Your opinion and my opinion as individuals is irrelevant - that's democracy for you. I intend to offer this choice because it's a solution that has a demonstrable track record of success when we are facing total failure, and because it is a choice we are not being offered otherwise. People will either want this or they won't - and if they want it they will get it. Maybe now is not the time, maybe things have to get much worse on the IOM before enough people start to ask why and look for solutions. If they do have to get a lot worse before people seek change so be it, I will keep this option on the table because for everything that's wrong with DD the other options are much much worse. Thankfully this won't be decided by the members of Manx Forums, as I'm sure you'll all agree.

 

 

J.

[the stinking enigma]

get rid of the ponytail i may take you more seriously. fucking hell man get a grip are you for real?

[James Hampton]

get rid of the ponytail i may take you more seriously.

 

1. I couldn't give a toss if you do take me seriously. This isn't about me.

2. Happy Wife = Happy Life. Unless you're providing sexual favours in return for hair, no deal.

[llap]

I think Stinky was just having a laugh. Though surely in a direct democracy if 51% of us say you should get a haircut, you should.

[homarus]

"What's happening at the moment is an experiment "

 

 

A bit like bendy buses then?

[Weevil central]

As to those of you who think that the basic premise of direct democracy is not a good idea, I guess we could debate the finer points of why you are wrong - starting with the clear and abundant failure of virtually all systems of executive government - but is there really any point? Your opinion and my opinion as individuals is irrelevant - that's democracy for you. I intend to offer this choice because it's a solution that has a demonstrable track record of success when we are facing total failure, and because it is a choice we are not being offered otherwise. People will either want this or they won't - and if they want it they will get it. Maybe now is not the time, maybe things have to get much worse on the IOM before enough people start to ask why and look for solutions. If they do have to get a lot worse before people seek change so be it, I will keep this option on the table because for everything that's wrong with DD the other options are much much worse. Thankfully this won't be decided by the members of Manx Forums, as I'm sure you'll all agree.

 

Unfortunately you seem to be in some delusional reality zone where you cannot see how ridiculous everything you are doing actually is. Maybe things have to get much worse on the IOM before enough people start to ask why and look for solutions? Well it's certainly doubtful that a joke voting website will ever be a solution for anything though isn't it? It's the Chrismas cracker gift to democracy. A bunch of fabricated sock puppet accounts with no controls over it at all firing out false results and pretending that it has even 10% credibility when it does not. You're not offering a solution to anything other than your own misplaced ego.

[Weevil central]

the views of a handful of angry people on social media are not necessarily those of his wider electorate.

 

Oh the irony. The views of a handful of made up accounts on a made up voting website count for even less. At least social media is comprised of largely real people. You have no input or mandate from the wider electorate at all. You just have a joke website tha has absolutely zero credibility in anything.

[James Hampton]

Oh dear, did mummy not let you play with other children much?

Maybe it is doubtful it will ever achieve much. Do I care what you think? Are you proposing a solution? Is anyone pretending it is anything other than exactly what it is at this stage, or that it has any credibility beyond that which the parameters we have set can achieve? No.

This is the first step. If the public want this kind of choice can we resolve all of the acknowledged issues with validation? Yes.

 

Don't worry I'll make sure once all the votes have been counted I'll put one back in for you against Direct Democracy - in the "Angry on Social Media" category.

 

(Joke - I don't and won't have access to the numbers, ever.)

 

J.

[Weevil central]

Oh dear, did mummy not let you play with other children much?

 

You would appear to be the big baby as you don't like the fact that your site is being exposed for what it is - a pitiful sham. I'm glad they don't let you have access to the numbers. However, it will be fun posting all this up at some stage to prove that votes that are apparently to be used to guide Gawnes votes in Tynwald have been made by people who registered on your site with email addresses such as 'philgawnelovescock' etc.

 

As an experiment it's a complete joke.

 

Only one day until the Twitter fest too ...

[asitis]

Evening Ladies & Gents.

 

Some people still seem to be struggling with the facts, so just for the record let me go over it again. What's happening at the moment is an experiment, as the topic of the thread rightly states. Some people seem to have concerns about validation process. These concerns have already been publicly acknowledged and the limits of what we're doing at this stage fully accepted. This has been made clear to the MHKs taking part, and will be reiterated when the results are discussed. The results of the polls this week will not be binding upon any decisions in Tynwald, they will be for the MHKs who have taken part to use as they choose at this stage.

 

Clearly the team could have implemented a system with a much higher level of identification required and this was discussed, however the likelihood then is that we would not have got anyone to take part - for obvious reasons. Getting people on board with minimal effort was the whole point at this stage. The bar has been set very low for this reason and acknowledged as such. The team will be discussing the various options there are to make the votes as verifiable as possible if the idea moves forward. Ultimately the current system of official electoral registration and then voting is largely unverified, so the bar we have to beat isn't exactly high.

 

Some of you obviously have an axe to grind against Phil, and that's fair enough. He's a politician, goes with the territory. I'm sure he can handle the love, and I'm sure he's aware that the views of a handful of angry people on social media are not necessarily those of his wider electorate. Again, just for the record, I first pushed this idea to Phil back in 2011 and he did not think it viable then. I have been pushing him again over the last 7 months or so. There are a number of reasons he is humouring me now, which he has discussed in public, one of which is of course getting re-elected. I'm struggling to see why people find this surprising. To be clear though, the website was my idea, the steam packet vote was my idea. I'm not doing this for Phil, and he's not agreeing to take part for my benefit. He doesn't have access to the voting data and neither do I.

 

As to those of you who think that the basic premise of direct democracy is not a good idea, I guess we could debate the finer points of why you are wrong - starting with the clear and abundant failure of virtually all systems of executive government - but is there really any point? Your opinion and my opinion as individuals is irrelevant - that's democracy for you. I intend to offer this choice because it's a solution that has a demonstrable track record of success when we are facing total failure, and because it is a choice we are not being offered otherwise. People will either want this or they won't - and if they want it they will get it. Maybe now is not the time, maybe things have to get much worse on the IOM before enough people start to ask why and look for solutions. If they do have to get a lot worse before people seek change so be it, I will keep this option on the table because for everything that's wrong with DD the other options are much much worse. Thankfully this won't be decided by the members of Manx Forums, as I'm sure you'll all agree.

 

 

J.

 

Have you any relatives connected with the Steam Packet ?

[Declan]

James - don't rise to him, he's just a troll with a grudge against Gawne. Boredom probably. His posts have been irrational and angry.

 

I think most people can see that this is an experiment, one that's worth trying out and recognise it won't be perfect at this stage. In fact there will be important questions that need answering, if this is to be taken forward.

 

It is better, in my view, to keep an open mind, or better still a critical or even slightly skeptical one, and see how it develops. Attempting to wreck it from the off means any good will go with the bad.

 

I'm sorry that you are pandering to Weevil Central, and barring me from the participating, due to an irrational rule.

[Weevil central]

James - don't rise to him, he's just a troll with a grudge against Gawne. Boredom probably. His posts have been irrational and angry.

 

I think most people can see that this is an experiment, one that's worth trying out and recognise it won't be perfect at this stage. In fact there will be important questions that need answering, if this is to be taken forward.

 

It is better, in my view, to keep an open mind, or better still a critical or even slightly skeptical one, and see how it develops. Attempting to wreck it from the off means any good will go with the bad.

 

I'm sorry that you are pandering to Weevil Central, and barring me from the participating, due to an irrational rule.

 

Joke initiatives deserve to me shown up for exactly what they are. If this information is also being used to drive a vote by an MHK in Keys it needs to be shown up even more for the sham that it is. There is no governance around anything and no ability to verify anything - not even that people voting actually exist and are real people. It's a complete joke and it will be exposed for the complete joke it is too.

[James Hampton]

 

Evening Ladies & Gents.

 

Some people still seem to be struggling with the facts, so just for the record let me go over it again. What's happening at the moment is an experiment, as the topic of the thread rightly states. Some people seem to have concerns about validation process. These concerns have already been publicly acknowledged and the limits of what we're doing at this stage fully accepted. This has been made clear to the MHKs taking part, and will be reiterated when the results are discussed. The results of the polls this week will not be binding upon any decisions in Tynwald, they will be for the MHKs who have taken part to use as they choose at this stage.

 

Clearly the team could have implemented a system with a much higher level of identification required and this was discussed, however the likelihood then is that we would not have got anyone to take part - for obvious reasons. Getting people on board with minimal effort was the whole point at this stage. The bar has been set very low for this reason and acknowledged as such. The team will be discussing the various options there are to make the votes as verifiable as possible if the idea moves forward. Ultimately the current system of official electoral registration and then voting is largely unverified, so the bar we have to beat isn't exactly high.

 

Some of you obviously have an axe to grind against Phil, and that's fair enough. He's a politician, goes with the territory. I'm sure he can handle the love, and I'm sure he's aware that the views of a handful of angry people on social media are not necessarily those of his wider electorate. Again, just for the record, I first pushed this idea to Phil back in 2011 and he did not think it viable then. I have been pushing him again over the last 7 months or so. There are a number of reasons he is humouring me now, which he has discussed in public, one of which is of course getting re-elected. I'm struggling to see why people find this surprising. To be clear though, the website was my idea, the steam packet vote was my idea. I'm not doing this for Phil, and he's not agreeing to take part for my benefit. He doesn't have access to the voting data and neither do I.

 

As to those of you who think that the basic premise of direct democracy is not a good idea, I guess we could debate the finer points of why you are wrong - starting with the clear and abundant failure of virtually all systems of executive government - but is there really any point? Your opinion and my opinion as individuals is irrelevant - that's democracy for you. I intend to offer this choice because it's a solution that has a demonstrable track record of success when we are facing total failure, and because it is a choice we are not being offered otherwise. People will either want this or they won't - and if they want it they will get it. Maybe now is not the time, maybe things have to get much worse on the IOM before enough people start to ask why and look for solutions. If they do have to get a lot worse before people seek change so be it, I will keep this option on the table because for everything that's wrong with DD the other options are much much worse. Thankfully this won't be decided by the members of Manx Forums, as I'm sure you'll all agree.

 

 

J.

 

Have you any relatives connected with the Steam Packet ?

 

 

No. No connection with the Steam Packet other than as a user - as we all are. This was the first question I asked the team before we set up the site.

 

James - don't rise to him, he's just a troll with a grudge against Gawne. Boredom probably. His posts have been irrational and angry.

 

I think most people can see that this is an experiment, one that's worth trying out and recognise it won't be perfect at this stage. In fact there will be important questions that need answering, if this is to be taken forward.

 

It is better, in my view, to keep an open mind, or better still a critical or even slightly skeptical one, and see how it develops. Attempting to wreck it from the off means any good will go with the bad.

 

I'm sorry that you are pandering to Weevil Central, and barring me from the participating, due to an irrational rule.

 

Thanks Declan. Yes there certainly will be plenty of things which will be discussed if the idea moves forward. We have discussed establishing a committee so that other people can be involved with the running of the site, to keep it entirely independent from government interference. We've also discussed the various ways verification could be improved, including verifying back to the voter and the public how each vote is cast, and ideas like short term ad-hoc representation - recognising that the public will not be interested in voting on all the issues all the time, but should have the power to step in if they feel something is obviously not in line with the policy direction they support. I'm not pandering to Mr Weevil, I have a fair idea who he is and I just thought it was worth correcting the obvious misinformation he's put up. I've done that now so we're all good. I'm sorry that you feel the rule which requires people to use their real name is irrational. You wouldn't (shouldn't) be able to vote in a general election using anything but your real name, and this service is pushing in the direction of hopefully one day allowing people to have a say on national issues - even if it's just policy direction (which we don't get at the moment). I can't see any way we could do that, or work towards a system of improved validation, if we don't ask for real names? However we are open to suggestions if you have any.

 

 

 

James - don't rise to him, he's just a troll with a grudge against Gawne. Boredom probably. His posts have been irrational and angry.

 

I think most people can see that this is an experiment, one that's worth trying out and recognise it won't be perfect at this stage. In fact there will be important questions that need answering, if this is to be taken forward.

 

It is better, in my view, to keep an open mind, or better still a critical or even slightly skeptical one, and see how it develops. Attempting to wreck it from the off means any good will go with the bad.

 

I'm sorry that you are pandering to Weevil Central, and barring me from the participating, due to an irrational rule.

Joke initiatives deserve to me shown up for exactly what they are. If this information is also being used to drive a vote by an MHK in Keys it needs to be shown up even more for the sham that it is. There is no governance around anything and no ability to verify anything - not even that people voting actually exist and are real people. It's a complete joke and it will be exposed for the complete joke it is too.

 

 

 

Do you have another record? This one's scratched.