WTF Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 7 minutes ago, bankerboy said: John, you’re the lawyer, not me, but have you actually read CAA CAP 670 part D? Seems to me, from a superficial reading, that there is sufficient flexibility to remain open, more at least than to which the air traffic controllers here (or retired ATCs perhaps) allude: Para D28 “At units where workload for any part of the day is judged to be low and the activity is spasmodic rather than continuous, periods of operational duty, at these times, may be extended to a maximum of four hours, provided that the following break is taken pro-rata (e.g. 45 minutes after 3 hours or 60 minutes after 4 hours).” Might be considered applicable to the IOM situation which is generally inherently less intense that, for example the control towers at Heathrow, Gatwick, Birmingham etc and particularly as all other traffic would have quietened significantly mid evening that night to allow sufficient rest periods. also Para D52 “In exceptional circumstances a Provider at a unit may in its discretion modify any Limitation through persons exercising its authority.” Exceptional circumstances being, perhaps, a one off delay caused by completely unexpected events at Gatwick, in the run up to Christmas? To me, these time limits don’t seem as black and white as painted. Time limits on staff 'on' time are black and white. Even sat on the ground in the aircraft flight crew and cabin crew are on the clock, maybe at a slower rate than on the air, but many pilots and crews will have timed out so open airports and planes available doesn't mean anybody was actually available to crew them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 30 minutes ago, bankerboy said: John, you’re the lawyer, not me, but have you actually read CAA CAP 670 part D? Seems to me, from a superficial reading, that there is sufficient flexibility to remain open, more at least than to which the air traffic controllers here (or retired ATCs perhaps) allude: Para D28 “At units where workload for any part of the day is judged to be low and the activity is spasmodic rather than continuous, periods of operational duty, at these times, may be extended to a maximum of four hours, provided that the following break is taken pro-rata (e.g. 45 minutes after 3 hours or 60 minutes after 4 hours).” Might be considered applicable to the IOM situation which is generally inherently less intense that, for example the control towers at Heathrow, Gatwick, Birmingham etc and particularly as all other traffic would have quietened significantly mid evening that night to allow sufficient rest periods. also Para D52 “In exceptional circumstances a Provider at a unit may in its discretion modify any Limitation through persons exercising its authority.” Exceptional circumstances being, perhaps, a one off delay caused by completely unexpected events at Gatwick, in the run up to Christmas? To me, these time limits don’t seem as black and white as painted. Obviously I don’t know who was on, when they started shift, who was available to cover, or what was needed the following day, either ATC, crew, or anything else. The airport was open late anyway because they’d extended hours to let the two Stobart operated flights for flybe in at 22.00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bankerboy Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 Ok, but I though the issue in this case was that Ronaldsway wasn’t open due to ATC staff being deemed out of time. I was pointing out that the limits for ATC time dont appear to be as black and white as they are being presented. You seem to be suggesting that the problem actually lies with easyJet staff being timed out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 Bit like the 'Brexit' debate? Who to believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bankerboy Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 Sorry, my response was addressed to WTF... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 Mine was aimed at all of you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 BTW. Second referendum................ STAY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieBrown Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 9 minutes ago, John Wright said: Obviously I don’t know who was on, when they started shift, who was available to cover, or what was needed the following day, either ATC, crew, or anything else. The airport was open late anyway because they’d extended hours to let the two Stobart operated flights for flybe in at 22.00 Thats lawyer speak for 'I was wrong' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTF Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 5 minutes ago, bankerboy said: Sorry, my response was addressed to WTF... Lots of people will have been timed out in many roles. It was a goat fuck caused by some folks with issues and drones. You just can't press a pause button in aviation and resume at will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopek Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 It's the aviation equivalent of kicking wing mirrors off. No thought to the wider implication of their actions??? Sinister? Probably not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 27 minutes ago, CharlieBrown said: Thats lawyer speak for 'I was wrong' No, it’s pointing out the facts and realities. Easy have issues if they end up with a plane in the wrong place and a crew at the end of their hours. Likewise Ronaldsway have issues if they have to stay open late unexpectedly ( pre planned is different ). Yes, there is some flexibility. I don’t suppose it was an easy day. Whoever was on, each of them, would have had to get in a 45 minute break between 21.00 and 00.00. As they were dealing with two flybe at around 22.00 it doesn’t appear to leave much wriggle room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asitis Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 It is my understanding flight crew have a discretionary two hour extended duty window and as it appears above ATC four hours depending on various circumstances. There is perhaps lots going on in the background that contributed too, so I would not seek to criticise anyone except the moron/s with the drones ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightBulb Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 6 hours ago, asitis said: It is my understanding flight crew have a discretionary two hour extended duty window and as it appears above ATC four hours depending on various circumstances. There is perhaps lots going on in the background that contributed too, so I would not seek to criticise anyone except the moron/s with the drones ! But the flight crew only key in the co-ordanates into the auto pilot before take-off, and the plane flies and lands itself, so not really a major issue if they go over there duty a couple of hours is it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asitis Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 Just now, LightBulb said: But the flight crew only key in the co-ordanates into the auto pilot before take-off, and the plane flies and lands itself, so not really a major issue if they go over there duty a couple of hours is it ? Not until their performance degrades due to fatigue and they key in the wrong information or they do have to do some of that pilot shit and fly it LOL !! As a friend of mine was told when he was learning to fly the airbus, the sim commander pointed to the control stick and said treat that like its covered in dog shit ! Fine until the automatics stop playing !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Colombe Posted December 23, 2018 Author Share Posted December 23, 2018 Oh! I wonder who it was then? Arrested Couple Freed Without Charge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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