P.K. Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, HeliX said: So would teachers, given the amount of unpaid work they do. As long as they can prove it's in excess of their 1265 hours pa I'm fine with it... Incidentally evergreen prep just topped off every year won't count... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Just now, P.K. said: As long as they can prove it's in excess of their 1265 hours pa I'm fine with it... Incidentally evergreen prep just topped off every year won't count... I'm not sure where your beliefs on teacher workloads come from, but having lived with 2 teachers and being friends with half a dozen or so more, I can positively state that at the very least the ones I know all work very hard. Perhaps that's a self-selecting group, but that's my experience. Given the 3 years at University + 1-2 years of training + NQT year, the salaries are pretty abysmal. Someone coming straight out of school at 16 and getting a reasonably well paying job (18-20k) is going to be the better part of £150,000 ahead of any teacher by the time they start earning. Not accounting for payrises for the person who left at 16, nor educational expenses for the teacher. There's a reason there's shortages... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 My elder sister was a teacher. And don't bother whining about the salary. Teachers are only expected to do their version of "work" for just 195 days out of 365 available. And only 1265 hours in that. Basically four days a week when they're working. Demanding more money for those hours is a ruckin' joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 12 minutes ago, P.K. said: My elder sister was a teacher. And don't bother whining about the salary. Teachers are only expected to do their version of "work" for just 195 days out of 365 available. And only 1265 hours in that. Basically four days a week when they're working. Demanding more money for those hours is a ruckin' joke. So you knew one teacher who didn't do a lot of work? Teachers are expected to do a lot more than those hours. They may only teach those hours, but the amount of paperwork, lesson planning, marking, reporting, club running, trip planning, show producing (for music teachers) adds a very significant amount of time. And that's on top of the problem I mentioned in my last post of paying people who's working careers start considerably later than the norm a poor salary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gettafa Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 26 minutes ago, HeliX said: Given the 3 years at University + 1-2 years of training + NQT year, the salaries are pretty abysmal. Someone coming straight out of school at 16 and getting a reasonably well paying job (18-20k) is going to be the better part of £150,000 ahead of any teacher by the time they start earning. Not accounting for payrises for the person who left at 16, nor educational expenses for the teacher. Jeez, where'd you get that sort of figures from? You've blown your argument right out of the water (one too many zeros maybe?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 7 minutes ago, gettafa said: Jeez, where'd you get that sort of figures from? You've blown your argument right out of the water (one too many zeros maybe?) £20,000 for 6 and a bit years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 To pre-empt an argument about achievable salaries for school leavers, let's assume they get paid the minimum wage and that they work 1800 hours a year, and never receive a payrise. Two years at £6.15 per hour: £22,140 Six years at £8.25 per hour: £89,100 So at age 23 when the teacher is just getting onto the normal payscale (albeit probably still as an NQT unless they did a teaching-based degree), the school leaver will have earned a minimum of £111,240. In likelihood more as they will have received promotions and payrises in that time. The teacher will also be likely to have had more expenses from University. The teacher will then start on £22,244 in band 1 (https://www.nasuwt.org.uk/uploads/assets/uploaded/ddcc2f30-39b7-4da7-a6a3f2ef9c998838.pdf). There's a couple of interesting tables in that document actually so I'll post those directly too: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ed fournier Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 A graduate's debts also need to be part of those calculations. A direct comparison with the Channel Islands isn't quite what its seems. The Jersey teacher's pay dispute settled a few years ago (which resulted in a substantial pay rise) was only sorted by the signing of an agreement with their government which effectively blunted the power of the unions. Qualified teachers in Jersey (2020) start on £37,702 - for the IOM it's £24,373. However, the prices in Jersey are somewhat above that of a flat in St. Pauls Sq Ramsey: https://property.jerseyeveningpost.com/search?buyrent=b&market=&parish[]=stbrelade&parish[]=stclement&parish[]=grouville&parish[]=sthelier&parish[]=stjohn&parish[]=stlawrence&parish[]=stmartin&parish[]=stmary&parish[]=stouen&parish[]=stpeter&parish[]=stsaviour&parish[]=trinity&spider=&minbeds=0&txtsearch=&minprice=0&maxprice=2000000 Teachers in the UK (and therefore here) may be in for a pay rise in the autumn anyway. I can't see the IOM Gov giving a further payrise on top of this. Perhaps the unions should look at other areas in which they can compromise - for example the T&C of service or the pension. The NASUWT and others have created enormous expectations as to the size of the money tree just up the road. Both sides need to save face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulJ Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 23 hours ago, HeliX said: Teachers are expected to do a lot more than those hours. They may only teach those hours, but the amount of paperwork, lesson planning, marking, reporting, club running, trip planning, show producing (for music teachers) adds a very significant amount of time. They could always work more efficiently. Better still,get a different job with"better" pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 1 hour ago, PaulJ said: They could always work more efficiently. Better still,get a different job with"better" pay. They can hardly do their paperwork, lesson planning, marking, reporting, club running, trip planning and show producing during lessons can they? If they all got different jobs we'd be in a bit of a pickle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTF Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 On 7/17/2020 at 11:18 PM, HeliX said: All of the teachers I know spent many long hours putting their syllabuses online and setting up systems such as Google Classroom to facilitate learning from home. i know one teacher too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 21 hours ago, HeliX said: They can hardly do their paperwork, lesson planning, marking, reporting, club running, trip planning and show producing during lessons can they? If they all got different jobs we'd be in a bit of a pickle. @HeliX Those who can..... Etc Not going to happen - is it...? I mean, drop a cushty for the real world. Laughable! But hey, why quit when you're behind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 1 minute ago, P.K. said: @HeliX Those who can..... Etc Not going to happen - is it...? I mean, drop a cushty for the real world. Laughable! But hey, why quit when you're behind... Why form a coherent argument based on fact when you can wheel out an old trope! There's nothing cushty about a teaching job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Just now, HeliX said: Why form a coherent argument based on fact when you can wheel out an old trope! There's nothing cushty about a teaching job. Quite. All those holidays - what a bastard they must be.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 Just now, P.K. said: Quite. All those holidays - what a bastard they must be.... The ones they do work during, and where the price of going anywhere increases dramatically to the point they can't afford it on teachers salaries? Yeah, great. Doesn't really cancel out all the extra hours during term time either. Teaching being so cushty must be why we have such an abundance of teachers. https://epi.org.uk/publications-and-research/teacher-shortages-in-england-analysis-and-pay-options/ https://www.manxradio.com/news/isle-of-man-news/staff-shortages-in-a-number-of-sectors/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-41361111 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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