Can the IOM be more independent ?

[Happier diner]

39 minutes ago, doc.fixit said:

But we could levy our own income tax and if the VAT we receive at the moment is accurate there should not be a difference in tax take? IF of course what we get now is accurate?

We already levy our own income tax. How could we reclaim vat on things bought on line. 

[Happier diner]

2 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Except UK defence spending is wasteful and excessive. France gets the same level of defence in manpower and assets for half the amount the UK pay.

Can you reference that? 

[GD4ELI]

4 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

Can you reference that? 

I doubt he can - France's defence budget is roughly the same as the UK's. All you need to know is easy to find with Google.

[John Wright]

15 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

Can you reference that? 

https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.php?country1=united-kingdom&country2=france
 

sorry. It’s 60% not half.

[momo65]

53 minutes ago, GD4ELI said:

Oh really? You should take those rose-tinted spectacles off sometime.

And don't forget the IOM isn't paying a serious defence contribution like grown-up countries do. Pro-rata with the UK this would be ~£55 million per annum based on the 2021 UK defence spending. 

Nor should we - the Channel Islands can attest to how interested the UK government is in defending them (and by extension us).

[Happier diner]

34 minutes ago, John Wright said:

https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.php?country1=united-kingdom&country2=france
 

sorry. It’s 60% not half.

That does not reference that it is wasteful and excessive though does it?

[GD4ELI]

5 minutes ago, momo65 said:

Nor should we - the Channel Islands can attest to how interested the UK government is in defending them (and by extension us).

And what would you have sone in 1939/ 1940 to defend the CI? It would have been impossible. The IOM was an important asset.

[Non-Believer]

5 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

That does not reference that it is wasteful and excessive though does it?

The UK MoD has had a long history of squandering billions in pursuing, "We must have our own thing" projects when off-the-peg-options were/are readily available. It supported whole UK contract industries in doing this although those off-the-peg options are now becoming more commonplace through financial restrictions.

But if you want a couple of examples, there were/are the billions spent trying to turn Nimrod into our own AWACS despite the known age and shortcomings of the aircraft, which were eventually scrapped in favour of the off the shelf purchase; Trident which is still not operational; and a huge amount of in-fighting between the Army and the RAF over responsibility for helicopters, Wildcat (or Future Lynx as the project was known) vs off the shelf purchase of Merlin or Blackhawk.

The list goes on and on. Regular reports make reference to expensive procurement failures.

[Happier diner]

4 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

The UK MoD has had a long history of squandering billions in pursuing, "We must have our own thing" projects when off-the-peg-options were/are readily available. It supported whole UK contract industries in doing this although those off-the-peg options are now becoming more commonplace through financial restrictions.

But if you want a couple of examples, there were/are the billions spent trying to turn Nimrod into our own AWACS despite the known age and shortcomings of the aircraft, which were eventually scrapped in favour of the off the shelf purchase; Trident which is still not operational; and a huge amount of in-fighting between the Army and the RAF over responsibility for helicopters, Wildcat (or Future Lynx as the project was known) vs off the shelf purchase of Merlin or Blackhawk.

The list goes on and on. Regular reports make reference to expensive procurement failures.

Understood. Do we know that the French havent had any issues?

A simple Google would tell me all is not rosy in that garden either. 

Look at all the tanks, planes and helicopters the Russians sent to Ukraine. Rubbish.

I 

[John Wright]

55 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

That does not reference that it is wasteful and excessive though does it?

No, that’s a conclusion inferred from the primary facts. Assets more or less equal. UK costs 75% more than the French.

 

23 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

Understood. Do we know that the French havent had any issues?

A simple Google would tell me all is not rosy in that garden either. 

Look at all the tanks, planes and helicopters the Russians sent to Ukraine. Rubbish.

I 

You’re conflating at least three different things.

The comparative practical utility, design, spec and maintenance of Russian, French or UK assets

The comparative morale, training and ability of the respective armed force personnel to use them ( when/if the assets work )

The fact that France ( or Russia ) wastes money doesn’t justify the profligate UK budget, cost over runs, failed development projects, aborted projects, attempts at bespoke development when there are off the peg solutions.

The aircraft carrier project is another case in point.

[Happier diner]

5 minutes ago, John Wright said:

No, that’s a conclusion inferred from the primary facts. Assets more or less equal. UK costs 75% more than the French.

 

You’re conflating at least three different things.

The comparative practical utility, design, spec and maintenance of Russian, French or UK assets

The comparative morale, training and ability of the respective armed force personnel to use them ( when/if the assets work )

The fact that France ( or Russia ) wastes money doesn’t justify the profligate UK budget, cost over runs, failed development projects, aborted projects, attempts at self development when there are off the peg solutions.

To be fair I wasn't disputing your statement. I was merely interested in how you came to the view. 

I agree that no of personnel combined with number of assets is a reasonable metric it may or may not tell the whole story. 

It would seem there are been some financial disasters and the latest aircraft carrier was massively over budget.

However the UK has a working modern aircraft carrier. The French have a 20 year old one that spends most of its time in dry Dock. But then I'm conflating again. 

[John Wright]

10 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

To be fair I wasn't disputing your statement. I was merely interested in how you came to the view. 

I agree that no of personnel combined with number of assets is a reasonable metric it may or may not tell the whole story. 

It would seem there are been some financial disasters and the latest aircraft carrier was massively over budget.

However the UK has a working modern aircraft carrier. The French have a 20 year old one that spends most of its time in dry Dock. But then I'm conflating again. 

Yes. Two aircraft carriers, floating, but not working. Huge mechanical problems. They keep breaking down. Prince of Wales can’t even make it round the IoW and back from Portsmouth. Plus, they don’t actually have planes to fly off them yet.

[Boo Gay'n]

4 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

However the UK has a working modern aircraft carrier. The French have a 20 year old one that spends most of its time in dry Dock. But then I'm conflating again. 

That isn't conflation, but it might be a fallacious comparison.  The aircraft carrier was eye-wateringly over budget, and went to sea (maybe still is the case) without aircraft because of utter botching by the UK military.  Plus, I would throw in, on that ancient principle that generals/admirals always fight their last battles again, that an aircraft carrier is hardly likely to be a useful piece of kit in modern warfare.

[John Wright]

12 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

The French have a 20 year old one that spends most of its time in dry Dock. But then I'm conflating again. 

Given an aircraft carrier should have a life span of 25-40 years Im not sure that’s relevant. Just means the French are on a different cycle.

[doc.fixit]

1 hour ago, Happier diner said:

We already levy our own income tax. How could we reclaim vat on things bought on line. 

My bad, I meant purchase tax of course. We wouldn't reclaim VAT on purchases online or, we would follow the example of Jersey, maybe.